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Episode 9 of Morning Maker Show: Navigating the rollercoaster of solo entrepreneurship

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    Morning Maker Show


In this episode, Dan and Sandra tackle illness, flight cancellations, and the Finnish winter while exploring the challenges of solo entrepreneurship. From App Store paychecks to weathering the Nordic cold, the hosts delve into the highs and lows of running a one-person show.

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Dan: Good morning, Sandra. Good morning, Dan. I think this is on me. You weren't the, you weren't the co host. No problem. That's been fixed. How are you today?

Sandra: Um, I'm good. I'm good. I'm feeling, um, I'm feeling all of your complaints that you've been sick and I've been ignoring your complaints and now I feel sick and now I feel bad that I was ignoring your complaints and that makes me a bad person.

So I'm very sorry that you're sick. I'm

Dan: sorry that you're sick, but we can still do the show, or is it the last episode and that's it? No freaking way, even

Sandra: if we end up in hospitals with infusion in our bodies, we will still be like, good morning, dad.

Dan: I don't know what's going on, Sandra, but let's, yeah.

Well, the show before I was close to that. No, not the one before that. I was close to that because I could barely speak. So now, but I, I empathize with, with your situation now, cause I I've just been through it. So I hope you get well soon. Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra: Yeah. And I, I tend to ignore all of my diseases and they just pass by me.

Dan: You know, that might be also the right approach because if you focus too much on it, then you're feeling even worse. Like your, your brain thinks, Oh my God, I'm gonna, I'm gonna die now, which is pretty much what I felt 10 days ago. But

Sandra: it's been a while for you. Like, this is no joke. You've been like more than two weeks now.

Dan: Yeah. I think I got a flu. Or some bad cold, and then I just changed it with COVID for fun. So it just continued being, and that was pretty bad in itself. And then COVID was, I was already weak, I guess. So, yeah. Yeah. So I'm doing my third week maybe of being sick. It's great. Yeah. But that's not gonna stop me to doing the show, that's for sure.

For sure.

Sandra: There's nothing gonna stop us, except, look at me saying there's nothing gonna stop me, um, and then me messaging you yesterday, there's no chance I can make it. Yeah.

Dan: Yeah, what happened with, with the flight? You really don't have any luck with flights

Sandra: lately. No, no, no, um, yesterday, actually, I was supposed to be in Helsinki on 2nd of January.

Um, I just, I was supposed to come back. Wait, that's

Dan: one week ago.

Sandra: Yeah, yeah. And then my flight got canceled. And bear in mind, I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the city called Banja Luka, and there is only one runway. And there's only like two airlines.

Dan: And one airplane. Yeah, okay. So

Sandra: it was so funny. So I got on the call with them, and they were like, yeah, yeah, no problem, we can switch your flights.

And I'm like, great, I need to fly tomorrow. And they were like, no, no, no, we have There's one on 5th, and the second one is 7th of January, but the one on 5th of January is fully booked. And I'm like, that's not a choice.

Dan: Can you sign up for a waitlist to fly out?

Sandra: But it was really nice. I stayed longer with my family and, um, everything turned out to be just perfect.

Dan: And it makes no difference work wise, or does it? Not

Sandra: quite. I mean, I worked, I worked fully remotely from there. And my parents were, like, totally understandable for that, which is so weird.


Dan: They didn't send you to a hotel. Fine. You can stay here for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Sandra: yeah. It was so funny, but my dad did the morning because he wakes up earlier and there was like a time zone difference. Um, so he would knock on my door and then he would make me a coffee and the lemonade and then he asked me, please.

Tell me you don't get this treatment in the office. I know

Dan: this is like royal treatment. You don't get that at a hotel. No, they were super nice. So at the end, you were like, can I just stay here longer? I mean, there are no flights, I might as well stay here until March.

Sandra: I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I love the darkness and depression of Finland.

It would be very hard for me.

Dan: Yeah. You've missed it. Yeah, the cold and the wind in your face. That's yeah. Yeah. That's something to miss. All right. Well, let's get into it. If you want to if you want to read the 1st update. Yes,

Sandra: please. Khoa, uh, Khoa is saying,

are you looking forward for the next App Store paycheck, but not quite, but, paycheck, but not quite when, hashtag IndieDev, introducing App Store payday track when upcoming payday is.

Okay, I get it, but are you looking forward to the next App Store paycheck, but not quite sure,

Dan: probably. Yeah, yeah, I think there's a word, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's like do you know, have you, have you tried this? But actually,

Sandra: no,

Dan: no, so it's a bit weird, but Apple just pays you whenever and you can't easily see it.

So I see the, is it for everyone? Like I went to the website and it says. The next one is in 22 days. Do they do it for everybody at the same time? I thought it's for each app. Interesting. Uh, wow. So, yeah. I thought they just decide, well, now you've either made enough money or we like the weather and then Therefore, you should get paid.

IT seems like everyone is getting paid the same day. I didn't know that.

Sandra: But that seems fair play to me. Is that wrong? Do you like that? Or do you hate that?

Dan: Um, you know, it's Apple, so you just have to say, yeah, for allowing us to exist Apple. And, um, yeah, I, I think it's fine.

I think what's not fine is their, their app store cut. So I have an app on the app store and well, you get 30 percent initially, and then you can apply. To get 15%, which is a little bit more decent. But that's a huge cut that they take, especially for indie developers. I mean, who, who takes 30%, not even, yeah.

Sandra: You say

Dan: 13? 30. 30. Three zero. Three zero. Okay,

Sandra: okay, because I was ready also to fight.

Dan: Yeah, it's huge. It's, oh my, so not even your bank, if you take a loan, they don't take that much of your money. It's like, it's an insane amount. Um, so I'm not a fan of that, but it is what it is. You get a lot for that 30% I guess.

So you, you get payments and you get, you know, reviews and support and so on. But if you go on setup for example, they don't do that. They take maybe 10% and it's a completely different model with the, with the subscriptions. Yeah. So I, I'd rather, I'd rather go there to be honest as an indie developer than, than to Apple, but they have this potential of featuring your app and, you know, getting a lot of eyes on it.

But in reality, that doesn't happen by itself is still, you still need to do the marketing. It's not like you put your app, Apple's going to absolutely love it because. It's your app and then you're going to get thousands of downloads just like that. That doesn't really happen to anyone. So you still have to put the work and then might as well, might as well go to set up where you get paid properly.

If they accept you that is, I think they're big into AI related apps right now.

Sandra: Interesting.

Dan: Yeah. All right. I can jump to the next one. Yes. By Greg Gilbert again.

And I see he was here the last show. Everybody seems to be talking about the weather in the Nordics today. Tell me about it. I thought I'd contribute with a picture from my run.

10 kilometers at minus 22 degrees Celsius. That's minus 7. 6 Fahrenheit if you're in the States. That is very cold and Greg has a frozen hat, a frozen, well, face and a frozen beard with it, but he seems in good spirits. I think this was a mistake.

Sandra: I'm just looking by, I'm looking at this picture. He totally looks like Santa. He's all white. Um, but somehow, surprisingly, he looks quite happy. And I have heard I have never done it before, but I've heard this, um, winter running, it's quite hard at the beginning, but there's some kind of pleasure after that.

I don't

Dan: believe in it. Yeah, the pleasure of staying alive. That's great.

Sandra: But Greg looks like very happy and very healthy, so I'm super happy for Greg. Maybe we should, maybe that's why we are sick, Dan. Maybe that's why we are

Dan: sick. Yeah. Um, I don't believe any of this. I mean, Wake up at 5am, go to the gym, run 10k.

No thanks. I'll just, I'll just take it on my own speed. It's great. Don't get me wrong. And I think it's amazing that a human being can do this, but minus 22 is very cold and I'd rather stay in a warm place. I'm sorry. I

Sandra: fully agree with you. I'm that person. Even when they take me to the cottage or something like that, and then they are like, okay, look at town and look at the sea.

And I'm like, look at the sauna. To that hall where you want to be, I'm not that type of a person.

Dan: But that's a thing in Finland, right? Where you, you go in the very cold and then the very warm.

Sandra: Very much. I feel like they do that for lunch. They lie to me. They are like, I'm going for lunch. Actually, they go swimming in.

Dan: Great.

Sandra: That's classic Finland.

Dan: Yeah, I, I think I'm going to visit it somewhere I should visit, I should

Sandra: not when you're sick, please, because, oh, maybe we can be sick together.

Dan: Actually. Yeah, that would be a great bonding moment. Yeah. Alright, I can take the next one by Wilmer, uh, wow. Rero (Terrero).

He is introducing Blur with three Rs.

Blur. Anything with a single click. Keep your sensitive data private while recording or screen sharing. Launching soon. Alright, so. If I understand correctly, this automatically blurs your sensitive data as you record?

Sandra: Oh my god, I need this. Wait, I need to find that.

Dan: Is it lodged already? You know why I

Sandra: need this?

Because I share so many Klu videos, and then the guy freaking out because I'm sharing their emails and their messages and

Dan: everything. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a hundred percent sure it's automatic. I see in the video, I think it's maybe semi automatic. So you can also say, okay, blurred this or blurred that.

Yeah. So even so that's. pretty cool. I think the problem is if you, if you start the video and then you show the sensitive information and then you realize, Oh, I should have blurred this. Let me just blur this email real quick. It might be a bit too late to do that. A little

Sandra: bit.

Dan: Yeah, but it, it could remember.

So at least the next time you're not going to. Yeah. I've

Sandra: learned they already yelled on me.

Dan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh, Sandra, have you prepared the sponsor for today, by the way? Yes,

Sandra: but it's still not time for the sponsors, Dan, you told me. Yeah,

Dan: no, no, I mean, I just remembered. Yeah. Okay, so you wanna take the next one by Tom?

Sandra: Of course. Tom, Tom, and, and Kantia. I'm really trying here. Very nice Spanish. Thank you. Thank you.

Goals for 2024. Okay. Achieve 8, 000 MRR by December, acquire 20 new clients, reach 2, 000 followers on X, and then what are your goals for this year? Hmm. Oh, but this seems good. I could take these goals. I already have 2, 000, maybe 10, 000 followers would be nice.

thousand followers, that's too much.

Dan: Yeah. Do you think, which one do you think is the hardest? 20 clients, 8k or more or 2000 followers? But

Sandra: now the question is like, what he means by 20 new clients? Like,

Dan: Oh yeah. And what context, um,

Sandra: keep working on.

Dan: No, no. Well, he's building a productized design agency. Yeah.

So. So, yeah, then, then a client here is, I guess, um, design agency client.

Sandra: Oh, and the pricing is quite nice. So it's quite achievable,

Dan: I guess. Yeah, so 395, that's, that's on the low side, but wait, what do you get? Oh, no, that's a trial. That's a trial. Wait a second. There we go. Yeah. So the Starter subscription pack is one and a half thousand per month, which I think is still on the low side, depending where you're looking.

Yeah, it's, it's doable. So 20 clients. And then, yeah, if you have 20 of those and you also eat. Reach the 8K MRR, uh, metric, right? Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I think, do you have any goals for this year? Like, do you, do you do this exercise where you list, okay, by the end of whatever I'm going to do this and that?

Sandra: Well, I have some goals now in January. I need, uh, in January regarding the Klu, like. We have stumbled on multiple problems and seen multiple problems, um, and we know the solutions for it. So we are fixing the things and the desktop app should be out by February. So that's, that's my goal for a month. When it comes to a whole year.

Oh my God. I have no goals for the whole year. Yeah. Oh, moving the product in the right direction and hoping for the best. Yeah, it'd

Dan: be nice. I mean, you probably have, uh, don't you have some user predictions or, or you probably have something like that, right? Because you're, you're serious about

Sandra: the goal is to have, um, 1000 active daily users.

Yeah, yeah, that's that we are doing everything for

Dan: that now, but that's not something new that you've set that goal. Probably a while ago. Yeah,

Sandra: I think that's, you know, it's, it's, we've been working on it and hopefully 10 K MRR and, you know, reaching that, not, not in this year, but like beginning of already may and,

Dan: Yeah, I think it's a healthy exercise to set these goals.

I'm not too good at it. I'd like to be better, but it's good to draw the line at the end of the year and kind of say, well, have I at least went towards my goals or completely sidetracked and did something else? You know, um, I should probably do it. I

Sandra: like more short version of the goals, like, let's say, two months or three months rather than the whole year because you have to follow the growth.

Yeah, but probably having one big goal by the end of the year, separated into multiple smaller ones. So you can easily follow. Yeah.

Dan: Yeah. I'm, I'm totally with that. My approach is pretty much a weekly goal and that, that's very short term, but it gets you to ship a lot of things if you do it that way.

But then at some point you might. You might think, okay, what am I doing? I've been shipping all sorts of things and it's, it's great progress. And it's actually very cool when you do that and you look back and you see, oh my God, I did so much in the past, you know, a few months. But sometimes it's also good to take a step back and think, okay, but where am I heading?

Like what am I, these things that I do weekly, are they going in the right direction or not?

Sandra: Yeah. Agreed. All

Dan: right, I'll take the next one by Nick Kimmel. Okay. Very short one. Nick.

He's saying I've established. A company in Poland, things are going serious, hashtag build in public. Congratulations, Nick. I think that means he's gonna, he's gonna make a bunch of money soon.

That that's the only reasonable explanation. Poland, there's a lot of people building in public in Poland, right?

Sandra: Yeah. Poland is quite active, I have to

Dan: say. I've never visited, I should go there someday.

Sandra: I want to eat Polish, um, how

Dan: do you call them? The pierogi? Pierogi. Yeah, yeah. I was there at the airport once and had the pierogi.

So, it's probably if Polish people hear this they're going to say I'm an idiot. So, alright, next, next one. Do you want to take

Sandra: it? Yes. Um, oh. Rye milk. Rymel. Rymel at GitHub.

So I asked the hashtag building public community for feedback and I decided to turn it into a short form video. This is my first attempt, so please bear with me.

Wait a minute. He asked Built in public for the feedback and decided to turn that into a short form video. That's

Dan: quite cool. So, yeah, the feedback that he got, he summarized it in a video, right? Is that how you understand it?

Sandra: Yeah, and then he did

Dan: it. It's interesting in the sense that people could learn from it, but I wonder, did he get something more out of it by doing the video?

Well, I guess More people engaging with this and seeing his product.

Sandra: 26 likes.

Dan: Yeah. It's, it's maybe just what you do in general when you share updates for building public. This is just a nicer format to share the updates. Does seem like a lot of work though. Have you tried doing any video? As

Sandra: I said multiple times, I'm very scared of like video creating, marketing things.

Takes a lot of time and effort. And.

I'm not, I'm not a big

Dan: fan. Yeah. Um, yeah, I've, you know, I've made a few clips for this show and that's really good. Yeah. Thanks. Um, it's a lot of work to even do like a 10 second clip if you want to get things right and make them, it's actually a little bit harder than I thought to make things engaging.

So I think the first one. Um, even though I thought it's very good because it's us, didn't do very well and the next one was a bit better and so on, but it's, it's like an entire art to do engaging ones. And it's probably, you can take a lot of inspiration from TikTok and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Do you want to take the next one? Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra: You know what, Dan? I feel like I'm doing this on purpose, but it's okay. Manoi. Manoi. Manoi. Ahivar,

I build your product MVP in 15 days. I will build your product MVP in 15 days. DM me if you're interested. Hashtag building

Dan: public. That's insane. Wait, is this like a, I need to open the comments.

There aren't that many comments for this insane statement. Um, I think that it's a paid service, right? There must be. Yeah. So. I will

Sandra: build your product and we clean 15 days, oh my god.

Dan: It, it's, it's interesting. I, I think it's maybe a different approach to an agency or, or what do you think? So you would, you would go to an agency and maybe.

Draft the contract and then say, okay, you want to build this or that and so on. And he's completely flipping that concept saying, whatever it is, I'll build it in 15 days. And we figure out what it is on the way perhaps, or we have a small talk and we just get to building it at the end of the 15 days, you get something deployed.

Sandra: But my problem always with this is like, what's next? Once you get this MVP and if you need someone to build you MVP, you probably don't have Ability to move forward with that MVP alone itself.

Dan: Yeah. So do you Yeah, do you get some code and then you know what to do with the code or

Sandra: yeah, it's very tricky Maybe maybe it's maybe at that stage You you you want someone to just to validate if you have validated through the landing page And then you need some some kind of working prototype of something Um, just to see the first initial feedback and moving forward from there and maybe building the team that's gonna continue that makes kind of sense, but it's still a lot of work and I'm so scared

Dan: of a lot of work.

Yeah, right, right. Or maybe the business model is you get the MVP very, I wouldn't say cheaply necessary, but you get, you get a good deal on the MVP and then the hope is that if the MVP is successful, they will. Hire you to continue to work on, on the project, which is probably reasonable to, to think.

Sandra: Oh yeah.

From that, from his perspective, for sure. Yeah.

Dan: But it's a big bet because it could just not go anywhere if, if, well, you know, most projects don't. Yeah. I'd say. So then you just did a service that, that maybe doesn't, Hey, but maybe they're gonna want you to do another MVP. In the future and so on. So it's, it's an interesting business model and something

Sandra: that could, yeah.

I've been following Manoj, Manoj, um, and he seems quite successful in what he's doing. So maybe that, you know, we saw people giving their products for free in order to market their real product. So maybe this is his approach as well. Yeah.

Dan: Yeah. I agree. All right, Sandra, I think it's, it's time now it's time for our sponsor that you prepared for so long.

You want to say a few words about it?

Sandra: Yeah. First of all, I'm also using this product. Funny thing, for us, it's only real sponsors, um, build backlinks for your startup. And I always have a problem with pronouncing this name. And then

Dan: Backlio, right? It's, I'm sure it's Backlio

Sandra: b dot.

Dan: Yeah. So it's B A C K L dot IO.

It's a, it's one of those names like, uh,, which is, you know - I mean, it's our sponsor, so we should know.

Sandra: Yeah. But backlinks, backlinks, like build backlinks for your startup really works because, um, it's made from, uh, One very active community member, Philipp, and I jumped on the call with him and he gave me a full SEO knowledge on what backlinks I have, what is working, what is not working, and then he taught me also like about the competitors and which backlinks they have now the goal with His platform or what he's building is to collect the backlinks that your competitor has and then automatically or more out of he automated the process of reaching out to people with these, um, backlinks that your competitors have.

So I highly, highly recommended, and 5 euros on a monthly

Dan: basis. Yeah. He, I think he has a closed alpha or beta, um, and he, he has an interesting approach. He's taking just a few customers, but communicating with them tightly and getting feedback so he can iterate on the product and then he's probably going to open it up to a wider audience later.

Yeah. But yeah, very cool. So yeah, you can send hundreds of emails to site owners, which is. More or less automated and this, this saves a lot of time and getting backlinks is very hard in general. So whatever tools you can get to, to be faster with that are, are awesome. So thank you so much, Philip, for apparently sponsoring our show.

Thank you, Philip. All right. I'll take the next one by Gabriel.

Gabriel says, Channeling my creative side. Being a solo maker is hard. You have to try to do everything yourself. Tell me about it. Good thing I know a little Photoshop. So he's essentially going into Photoshop and I think explaining one of his, one of his products or making a presentation for one of his products.

Oh, Photoshop takes me back. What's your relationship with Photoshop? Oh,

Sandra: I liked Photoshop before and then Figma came out and then I realized how much Photoshop is shit. Yeah.

Dan: Alright, so similar relation. But it's, you know, some days I, I go into Figma and I want to do like a small change to a photo. I don't have Photoshop anymore.

It's kind of expensive if you don't use it. Yeah. Often, it's hard to just have it for fun. And then Figma doesn't have anything to, like, even for, you know, cropping a face of someone, right? Yeah. That's not super easy in Figma. Like, you kind of have to work around it. And that's. It's super easy in, uh, in Photoshop.

It's easier to do it in, in like Apple preview or whatever they can remove backgrounds and stuff. Now with a click. Did you know that? No. Yeah. Because like any photo you have in you open it, I don't even think you need to open the photo. You, you right click it and then you, you have a option to remove the background of the photo straight in there.

Apple finder, whatever. It's cool. So yeah, I love Figma and I'm not, I'm not a fan of Photoshop anymore, but some days I really miss it to be honest. Yeah, but it's

Sandra: even too complicated and too heavy and yeah, just too much. Do you know, do you remember the, what was the name? The illustrator?

Dan: Oh yeah. Yeah. That was even more complicated.

Sandra: Oh my

Dan: god. That's a fair comparison though. Comparing Figma to Illustrator is maybe better because a lot of people would use Illustrator for the graphic design stuff and even website design. Like there was a brief period where People would do complete websites and you had no tools whatsoever to help you with that.

So if you, if you made a lot of screens, then you would copy paste things. And then if you need to change something, you would have to go through each of the screens. It's so crazy that I have to explain that, but it used to be like that. So this thing where in Figma, you can automatically update a component.

Sandra: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

Dan: Yeah. So. All right. Do you agree that you have to do everything yourself? Easy question.

Sandra: I mean, yeah. What else can you do?

Dan: Yeah.

Sandra: I mean, being a solo maker is really hard because you find yourself in the situation where you're not like just making a product, but you're thinking about the product, you're designing the product, you are reaching out to the people, you are a marketer itself, you, you're building your own persona, you're dealing with.

Tags, God forbid someone is paying for this and it's

Dan: just, there's so much to know. Yeah. I agree.

Sandra: There is so much to know and you really need to learn fast and you need to be like a tricky person, but tricky person in the most positive way where all of these things don't quite get hard on you, but you're like, yeah, let me deal.

Dan: That's the funny thing is that the first time you do something you think, yeah, I, I could do this. I get the hang of it. And then as soon as you do it for a little bit, you realize, oh my God, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Sandra: I I'll tell you a secret, a good bookkeeping company is poor of everything. That's

Dan: what I'm getting at is that some tasks. It's maybe better just to pay someone to do them, like bookkeeping or accounting and so on, especially because you can get in trouble with that. But also design wise, maybe for something.

So if you, if you're really not experienced with that, perhaps it's, it's good to even get a roast or whatever. Just like a quick. Brush up on your landing page or, or, or something like that. It's not, not the traditional, okay, let's go to an agency and pay this bucket of money to design thing. I don't like that approach, but at least you build something, you ship it.

And then you, you pay someone to. Give you a sort of, uh, yeah whatever redo brush up of the design. I'm a fan of that because some people are very good at what they do. And then for not a lot of money, you can actually get a lot further, even though you could do it yourself, but you just have too many things to do.

So yeah,

Sandra: that's very true. I've learned a lot about design just by people roasting my own designs.

And small changes, you don't see, you're so used to them and then they just change a shade of the color and you're like, Oh my God, this fits so much better.

Dan: Yeah. It's the same with, with marketing too, is some things you're going to learn the hard way, but you could pay someone and. It's a, it's a bit of a shortcut, right?

If you, if you can pay someone and you also find a, a deal that's not a lot for, not, not, not every indie maker has, you know, the resources to, to pay for, let's say marketing, but if you can find it, you get ahead. a lot quicker if you find the right person to show you some tips and tricks.

Sandra: Fully agree. Fully agree.

And sometimes you don't have to pay because I do free calls.

Dan: Yeah. Just call Sandra. That's right. Yeah. That, okay. We're going back to the community is when you, when you build in public and you ask for feedback, I think. Most times you're going to get people that will say, well, I could do, or this happened with, with, with my Google ads account.

And he's actually listening. Hi, Serhii. He, he said, uh, well, let me roast your, your Google ads. It doesn't look good at all. And it didn't look good at all, to be honest. And I also. It just got banned, so it didn't look, um, it didn't look great. And he, oh my God, he made the presentation of my Lifetime. It was so good.

I've learned so much and we did almost one and a half hours and, you know, that. That has completely changed the way that I think about ads and the way I can do research and also just knowing ballpark, you know, so if you take Google ads, what's a good CTR for an ad? You know, and you, the first time you learn, you don't know what you should aim for.

So just having someone tell you, you know, it should be between this and this, if you did it right. That, that's worth so much.

Sandra: Was that our second sponsor? Are you telling me that?

Dan: I think we've just discovered our second sponsor for today. I think his agency is called, and that's probably WellWeb dot Marketing. Serhii and his team does a lot of analytics, advertising, email marketing, SEO, and all that stuff, so it's awesome. Check it out. Yep. All right. Do you want to take the, I think this is the last one. You still have to do some work today, right?

Sandra: Don't talk about work when we are having fun.

Dan: Okay.

Let's just keep going for two hours.

Sandra: Okay. Nathan S. Robinson. Robinson Crusoe. That was

Dan: my favorite. Come on. This was an easy one. Come on. How did you mess this one up?

Sandra: When you are unmotivated, what do you do? Do you try and push through? Do you rest? Do you switch your focus to something else? Hashtag building public.

Hashtag productivity. Oh, the last, actually the last, um, space we had, we talked a lot about the productivity and how to move forward in 2024. And the one thing that I remember everyone saying and what we read is just like, just do it, don't think about it, find small tasks, don't over, um, think about the things you have to do.

Um, but break it down and put the small task and then just try your best to finish something.

Dan: Yeah, Hannah in the comments says: I dance. That's also doing something, I guess. Um, I, I agree. Do whatever. And I think I said the last time, start doing something, but even start doing. Something that you find fun, even though if it's not the most important thing, just to get started and then you'll get to the, to the harder things later, I think arresting that could work if you're in a situation where you've, you've worked a lot, then it's more of a burnout situation where you need to maybe.

go for a run or go in the nature so you can get back to it because it's just been too much. But if that's not the case, I don't think resting helps and you, then you feel bad about yourself because you haven't done much. And then now you're also essentially procrastinating, right? And then you're even more unmotivated.

That's how it works for me anyway. Yeah.

Sandra: I know when I'm writing the Morning Maker Show newsletters and we go, we go kind of through a lot of people and a lot of posts and sometimes it's overwhelming for me to write something. So I start by listening the podcast and then, I mean the podcast, the space, and then, then usually you say something funny and then I catch on that thing and then I wrote the whole newsletter about that.

It just, it takes us that one moment where it clicks for you. And then it's so much easier. Everything else, it fits into pieces. So try to try it. It's that interesting part, something that holds on to you where you start.

Dan: Yeah, completely agree. All right. What do you think we, we call it a day? I can keep.

Going, but I should be working. I think this is so fun. It's always so fun.

Sandra: I read somewhere under our space that the people love that. It's only 30 minutes. And, um, I've noticed in the past few spaces that we go on and go on much. Yeah. So maybe it's time to close it

Dan: and keep it. But look, there's so many awesome people listening just from the top.

We have Marie, we have Joao, we have Simon and Charlie and Serhii and Dany. I'm, oh my God, it's so awesome. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. It's so nice to see all of these familiar faces.

Sandra: Yeah, we need that sound of love. What is the sound of love? Awww.

Dan: Exactly. I, it's good that you put that

sound, uh, that could have went very badly.

I know.

Sandra: I was scared as well.

Dan: All right. Thank you so much everyone for tuning in. We will catch you next one Friday. We do that in the morning for, I guess, San Francisco morning, which is our evening actually. So we try to sort of accommodate for a different time zone. I'm not sure that's going to be like that forever, but we'll try it.

I know this one's very, either very early or straight up in the middle of the night for some. Sorry for that, but maybe we'll catch you Friday then.

Sandra: Yeah. And hopefully we will be healthy as well. Yeah,

Dan: I doubt that after three weeks, but fingers crossed.

Sandra: Thank you, thank you everyone, and happy new year one more time, and see you in the next episode.

Dan: Remember to sign up for the newsletter on, and we'll see you next time. Bye! Bye!

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