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Episode 31 of Morning Maker Show: Alpaca is expensive

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    Morning Maker Show


In this episode, Dan and Sandra look at MVPs, retirement options complete with cheese-making setups as well as discuss why maybe you should not invest into crypto. You might spend your money better by investing into SEO instead!

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Dan: Good morning, Sandra.

Sandra: Good morning, Dan.

Dan: This is such a beautiful morning with sun, with energy, with a new week. How are you today?

Sandra: It's lovely. I don't know what happened to me this morning, but I woke up with so much energy, with so much attitude towards like things and opinions, and I'm so ready.

The Dream of a Goat Farm

Sandra: Also, I, I want to tell you something.

Dan: Tell me something. It's a secret.

Sandra: Yes, it's a secret. Um, so, you know, all the makers and people in general, they have their bio, bio on Twitter. And then they put like, um, timeline of their 10K MRR, or I don't know, 5K or whatever, blah, blah, blah, you

Dan: know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. The typical stuff. Yeah.

Sandra: Yes. Yes. So I have decided to be typical as well and do the same, but not with MRRs and things like that.

But how far I am from my dream of having a goat farm Okay.

Dan: And how do you measure that? Is it in kilometers or in milk quantity? How many liters of goat milk you have?

Sandra: How many goats I have? But no, no, no. Take this very seriously, please, because I'm being serious. Um, So my idea is like, I don't know, how much money do you need to have a farm?

Dan: Uh, well, depends where, but my grandfather had

Sandra: some land, so maybe family will give me like some land. And then I just need goats. So maybe like five goats, seven goats. And some chickens probably do that

Dan: now. It's like less than you pay in taxes in Finland to get that for sure. So,

Sandra: but you also need savings.

Dan: Okay. Okay. So you also want to live for what? 20 years at least, but the goats will provide food. So you don't, you don't need that many savings. You're going to have the food. You just need. You know, some electricity

Sandra: and imagine how happy person and into enthusiastic person I would be on a farm doing morning maker show.

Dan: I will give you some bad news. I think you can do that now. If you have the land and you, and you move and you move to Bosnia, right?

Sandra: Yes.

Dan: I think you can afford to go farm right now. And this is a problem.

Sandra: That's a problem. Let's not think like that. Let's have like a goal, which I need to achieve in order to do that.


Dan: but okay, let's say, let's say 1 million euros, right? Well, you need 1 million euros, so then you get more goats. When the goats get old, you're going to get more goats. And maybe you want to have a little bit of luxury in your house. No,

Sandra: yes, I like a million. Million could be good. Million is a good number.

One million, but it's too much work also.

Dan: But do you want to goat farm or not?

Sandra: Yes, but not that serious.

Dan: There is a risk that you're not going to like goats. You know that.

Sandra: But there's nothing much to like about them. Except, like, they give you milk, and you can also make not only cheese, but you can also make soap, which I heard is very good for your skin.

Dan: Well, okay, they're actually, you know, cute and stuff.

Exploring YouTube's Depths

Dan: Do you, do you watch, you go deep on YouTube, right? Thank you very deep. You find things on YouTube. Is that right?

Sandra: Yes. Very true. Very true. I'm guilty.

Dan: So if you go deep enough, you find this guy that bought an abandoned mining town. Have you found this guy?

Sandra: Um, I didn't found that guy, but I did found a lot of guys that are just building their, um, houses.

Dan: Okay. Okay. Like that. Yeah. I know. I know. I know those types. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's one that doesn't even have voice and then you just build and you watch.

Sandra: You just build. On a Christmas Eve, this is so funny that you mentioned that, but on a Christmas Eve we had dinner, and then the whole family got around, we were watching this guy in a forest building his house, and it was like four seasons changing during this video, so it was all of us just watching this guy building this house.

Talking and no one said anything

Dan: No one was talking to each other just watching. Okay That's a cozy christmas. But anyway, so there is a guy that that bought an abandoned mining town and he he got goats and If you watch those videos with the goats, you see they're very cute. They're kind of Attacking you and pushing you around.

Sandra: Yeah.

Dan: So that's not ideal, but they, they seem also kind of cute and fluffy. And of course you need to shave them in the summer because, you know, it's a lot of work. No, no, also goats. You need to shave them as well? I think, well, okay, maybe I get it wrong, but like, it seemed like their, their fur is getting like longer and longer, like not fluffy as the sheep do.

Sandra: Okay. Okay. I know.

Dan: About goats. You just

Sandra: that Dan will not have a goat farm, but he, he is more than welcome to come and enjoy mine.

Dan: Oh yeah. I dunno. The first thing about goats, can you also get an alpaca? I like, I like kind of like those.

Sandra: Oh yes, yes, yes. We can have all of those fun things. Yes, you are right.

You need a million for that.

Dan: Yeah. Alpaca is expensive. Yeah. Alright, Sandra, but. Before you, you do the goats, we need to go through updates. We need many, many episodes. We need, we probably need sponsors. Now you need 1 million or euros or whatever your favorite currency is. Did you used to have a different currency in Finland?

Sandra: Yes, it's euros now.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Marks.

Sandra: Yeah.

Dan: I like that, but no marks, no euros, just updates today.

Maker Updates and Public Performances

Dan: Do you want to take the first? Update.

Sandra: Absolutely. Charlie, Charlie Coppinger.

I hope so. About a year ago, I bought a piano and started a little club of the lobby of my office. This weekend, I took it out into the park while a street festival was on and proceed to have a blast.

Build in public, build things for the public. Hashtag build in public. Oh, Charlie. Lovely.

Dan: Did you ever, I want to ask, did you ever go in public and perform? When was the last time you did that? This is so cool.

Sandra: Does karaoke bar counts? Because that's like a weekly ritual. Sure.

Dan: Sure. Uh, well, yeah, then you just have to do it in the park and not in the park.

Sandra: I love this. I think it's really fun to see makers. in their like daily lives outside of like whatever they are building and see the things they do enjoy. Um, and I didn't know that Charlie is into pianos.

Dan: I didn't either. It's actually quite interesting to see like more of builders hobbies and whatnot, because the most things that you see is work because we're also so I'm trying to use a good word, but addicted comes to mind.

Um, and not a lot of people do things outside of it. Like, yeah, The products and so on. That's what you do. So seeing someone playing an instrument is kind of inspiring to me. I would like to play an instrument now. Okay.

Email Marketing Insights

Dan: I have an update ready from Manish.

He says, dear email slash newsletter experts.

What are your thoughts on the open rate of the last mail by care career craft AI? She has an open rate of 68. 2%. That's pretty good.

Sandra: That's really good. That's really really good. Um I, I, I think we experienced something very similar with, um, morning maker show, and one of the reasons that I think this is happening, I think we have like 70%, um, one of the reason why is this happening or at least my, my version of the story is that we have extremely engaged audience and if you are building your audience like that, I think open rate can be quite high.

Um, but it's also good to go back on the clicks as well. And see what's the percentage there, but this is very good. We celebrate this.

Dan: We celebrate it. Congrats, Manish. Uh, someone was saying that depending on what you hit, the open rate is not a hundred percent accurate always, because there are some email clients that would.

Open it for you, so to say, and kind of, you know, maybe the modern ones that do some sort of AI features and so on might open it without the user opening it. So it's maybe these days a little bit harder to say if this is completely accurate or not, depending on your users, but it's still like a good indication.

I think, but as you said, if you also have a good tool, Uh, click rate, then there's probably, you know, there, that, that cannot be a coincidence. And then, then you're doing pretty good, but I think everything about 50 percent is already decent in my mind.

Sandra: I fully agree with you. The hitting these numbers, quite high numbers is a big achievement with email providers or like.

With these fancy email providers that are opening and reading before, even if you take the percentage of this 68, it would be still high.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah, we had this thing yesterday where there were a few that bounced and I knew nothing about bouncing. I mean, I know what bouncing is, but I've learned there are two types of bouncing, soft and hard.

Did you know that? Actually, so of course you did because you're a genius, but I didn't, and I asked chat GPT and apparently like a hard bounce is not too good to have. If you have a, an email list and you get those, you should probably remove those emails. Cause they could affect your reputation apparently, and you know, there's no reason to send an email that never makes it and the hard bounces essentially either they gave you a wrong email completely or a gibberish email.


Sandra: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan: Or. What other thing could be like a fake domain or, you know, it's just, yeah.

Sandra: And I was actually quite surprised when I saw this yesterday, um, because it wasn't happening before this, these new, um, subscribers coming in. Actually came after Product Hunt launch. No, wait, we had something.

Was it after the Product Hunt launch? Could be, but I was quite surprised. So I went through all of the emails just to double check if someone maybe actually like spelled something wrong or gave address wrong, you know, to make sure that we don't, people like don't miss the newsletters.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So very good. Open rate. Congrats. And keep an eye on the bounce rate is, is what I'd say. Yeah. Keep an eye and, uh, clean it up. Yeah.

The Goat Count Dilemma

Dan: We have one very important question that we need to go, go to, and then I wanna ask you something very personal. Um, Kaan asks, how many goats are too many goats?

Sandra: You see, this is a really good question, a really, really good question.

I would say five that you can control. they listen to you, they are polite and they produce milk and you give them food and they produce more milk and be happy. But then going over that as a single parent of these goats would be very difficult, I think. I don't know.

Dan: I agree. But how much cheese do you want?

That's the question.

Sandra: Well, my plan, my plan is to bring families from the city to enjoy the farm alive. With their kids during the weekend and make cheese.

Dan: Yeah. Okay. With them.

Sandra: Yes.

Dan: So, I will Are you gonna charge them for this?

Sandra: Of

Dan: course, of course. I mean, then.

Oh, of course, of course. It's all about the money. Okay. So, anyway, I'm thinking it's quite dangerous to have more than five, I agree. You don't want overproduction of cheese. Then, then you need to go to the market and deal with all that thing. No, no, no. So you don't want to go to become a brand and make deals with supermarkets.

And, you know, Right, keep, okay, I'm going too far. I want to ask you a personal question. You want to take the next update or we go in the personal question? I let you decide, so I don't put you on the spot. Okay.

Imagining the Pull Ups 20 App

Sandra: Pierre.

I'm working on my iOS app, waiting for pull ups 20 to be approved or not. I wanted to take a break, but... it brings me so much dopamine to build new apps.

Okay. This is your area of expertise.

Dan: Well, I was actually looking for a link. There is none, there is no screenshot. So let's do an exercise. When there is no link or screenshot, we need to imagine what this could be. So pull ups 20 in my imagination is an app. It's, it's a, it's an iOS app, right? And it's an AR app where you basically scan your room and then.

Essentially you track other people's pull ups through AR and they basically get points and they kind of get, you know, instructions on how to do pull ups better. So it's actually, you know, a training app that improves your pull up game. Does that make sense? That's what I think it is.

Sandra: So very well said. I heard absolutely nothing, but I fully agree with you, but I have my own version of what pull ups 20 could be.

Dan: Okay.

Sandra: So I think this is a sport app where you go to the gym. Okay.

Dan: Yes.

Sandra: And then, um, you have a person telling you what you need to pull up.

Dan: Yeah. Okay. So you don't pull up yourself, you pull up an object.

Sandra: Yes.

Dan: Okay.

Sandra: And please don't tell me what you said because Oh, it's the same. It's the same.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah, it's the same. Yeah, of course. Don't listen to the recording, . Uh, you know, we should do this. We should do this. We, we mute each other and each of us has to go without knowing, uh, right.

Sandra: Oh no.

Dan: Okay. So you're going to be disconnected a bit today.

Quite fun. I need the challenge. I need. You know, some randomness in the show, it's, it's been too boring, really. I mean, professionalism, microphones working, it's just too smooth. So pretty nice. I want to ask you the personal question before you get disconnected again.

Cryptocurrency Conversations

Dan: Have you invested in cryptocurrency lately?

Sandra: So, yes, as a cryptocurrency professional in the past two weeks, I have to tell you, yes, uh, again, I have became a professional. If anyone needs advice,

Dan: I'm the person to go. Oh, this is actually investment advice, right?

Sandra: Yes, yes. Invest in gold, not in cryptocurrencies.

Dan: They're far more reliable.

Sandra: Far more. Um, it's a, it's, it's, it's gambling.

Thank you.

Sandra: It's pure gambling.

Dan: Yeah. And how has it worked for you? This gambling?

Sandra: Well, uh, you see, this is the thing about gambling and why it's addiction. Um, in the past two weeks, it was really bad. It was just like, I, I jumped on a wagon when it was going up and I was like, Oh my God, I'm so ready for this.

And then I totally lost. Like it was going down, down. And then somehow last night it was coming up. So now I'm going to buy tomorrow. I'm going to be a millionaire probably.

Dan: Okay. Okay.

Dan: So how did you get the idea of doing this extremely? Profitable investment. I have a

Sandra: person that is, um, X almost millionaire on Bitcoin.

Dan: You have this person.

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he was like, when the shit hit the fan at the, Um, he said he was a millionaire and then he went to sleep and then everything kind of just fell apart. Are

Dan: you really a millionaire? If you want to go to sleep, you're not a millionaire. Yeah.

Sandra: And, um, so he's very depressed about that time.

Um, so it was always kind of interesting for me, but I never went fully in it. And then because like Bitcoin few weeks ago reached ultimate high. Am I saying these words correctly, people? I am not a professional.

Dan: Yeah, it's good, it's good.

Sandra: Um, I was like, maybe I should invest.

Sandra: Not in Bitcoin, of course, because it makes no sense.

But like, I should find and see, like, what's on the market. So, as a proper professional, I went to my bank. That was your

Dan: first mistake. But

Sandra: And so, but they are offering to me to invest in like cryptocurrencies. And there was wait, wait, wait,

Dan: stop right there. The bank, Oh, revolute. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Sandra: So then I was, then I made a mistake because I found a really nice one that was climbing.

And I was like, okay, great. I'll buy it here now. But I didn't understood that I should look at the past six months, a past year, a past five years. Oh, so

Dan: it was climbing the past 24 hours. This looks good.

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. This is what your bank does. That was a mistake. Um, and then I bought it and then It went down and down and down.

And I was like, Oh my God, I feel my friend and why he's depressed. And I'm talking like, you know, just small money. Um, And then last night went up and up and up and now I didn't check

Dan: So you're actually saying that you haven't lost yet. You still have some money.

Sandra: No, no No, I haven't lost of course then, you know, i'm not a loser but

Dan: Okay Well, uh, I think I think You know, don't put too much money in it.

That's too late. Who am I to give advice anyway? I don't know anything. Put it all, put the gold money in

Sandra: it.

Dan: It is a bit like gambling, you know, when it came out, I actually thought of it in a romantic way as a solution to a problem, and I think to some extent, maybe Bitcoin still is a little bit. Like that, like it's, it's a solution to the problem of transferring money without having someone to kind of control it.

You know what I mean?

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. That's

Dan: very cool. But. It's not useful at a personal level, especially not right now. You cannot, you still can't pay with it. You still, you know, I mean, you kind of can, but you know, by the time you pay, it's 30 percent more or less, or, you know, if you wait for a week, so it's not too good for that.

It, it kind of became a long term investment for many. And, um, I don't know. If the value is that accurate, I kind of feel like people with a lot of money got on it or people made a lot of money on it and they're kind of calling the shots. So you and me, we go in, we think we make an investment and then we actually gamble essentially because we don't know how things will go.

Sandra: Yeah.

Understanding Investment vs. Savings

Sandra: Um, during these past two weeks, I also understood the difference between investment and savings.

And it's funny because like, I'm coming from a startup world. I'm quite aware what investment is and risk of investment. Um, and that's not saving.

Dan: No.

Sandra: That's my advice to people that are getting in. Just determine, um, A fine line between investment and what you're ready to lose. And then be like kind of smart, if you can, not like me and save your money.


Dan: Thank you for the advice. Should I tell you a small story with cryptocurrencies?

Sandra: Yes, please, please, please. I want to know.

Dan: Okay.

Dan: So at some point I decided I could be mining cryptocurrencies. Did you know about that?

Sandra: Why? I mean, yeah, they are mining it to get that thing.

Dan: And I actually tried it and it's very funny.

Money just appeared out of nowhere. I mean, you would pay for electricity. But there was money coming in and it was at the time mining Ethereum. You can't do that anymore. And funny enough that it could actually be scaled up and it even made sense to do it.

Dan: And then right now, the biggest problem with that is that you use electricity and you destroy the planet.

So you can kind of do it in some countries that have a large amount of renewable energy. So maybe 70 percent of it is not going to be, you know, burning fossil fuels to produce this. But anyway, you could do it and you can scale it up. So then I thought, well, let's get a graphics card and then let's get another one and another one, and then more money would come and, um, It was such a weird concept that I can't remember how much I was making every day, but you were making kind of a considerable amount a day out of nothing.

And I basically stopped doing that because then it was way before the war and everything, but then electricity prices jumped and then it didn't make sense to do it anymore. And then I also had these thoughts about, is this actually Helping the planet or not. And I had these like big philosophical discussions, like everyone in Denmark is.

You know, kind of on the left or not everyone, but a lot of people are in there and they're progressive and saying, you know, you, you need to think about the climate and all of that. So I kind of felt bad in the end, but it was like creating money out of thin air. And I think to some extent that made me lose confidence in this whole thing.

If that makes sense.

Sandra: Yeah.

Dan: Like it didn't feel real anymore.

Sandra: Yeah. I understand what you mean. I understand what you mean.

Dan: Yeah.

The Evolution of Cryptocurrency as an Investment

Dan: So that's all in the past, but I still have some crypto somewhere and. I, I check it every now and then, but I don't think I'm going to ever withdraw it. So, um, it's, it's there, you know, just to prove that once I did this, and it might be one of those things that grows, you know, until, uh, well, I don't know until, well, I don't know if it's going to disappear ever, but if you look back two years, three years, you can kind of.

You can never approximate this, but you can see that over long term it keeps growing, it keeps going up. It's a crazy amount. I think it was seven, 70, 000 at the all time high. So maybe a long term investment, but a very risky one because it could just go to zero as well.

Sandra: Yeah. You really need to be careful with this.

Really careful and smart about it.

Dan: Let's take the next update. I lost you completely from everything. I don't know where you are. That's fine. I will read it.

Diving Into Development: Building an LMS Platform

Dan: Pritam Ghosh says...

Building a LMS platform in XJS. Add file upload functionality using upload thing dot com. What is an LMS? Platform, do you know


Sandra: models? Okay. Okay.

Dan: I'll mute you and then you tell me what you think LMS is. And then I'll tell you now. Okay. Um, learning management system.

It could be learning management system. So I haven't heard about this before, but he's using something called upload thing. com to upload files. I'm actually, there's no link or no other information. So I would like to tell you more, but I will talk about upload thing instead, because there is a link for that.

So let's go.

The Simplicity of File Uploads for Developers

Dan: It's a file uploads for Next. js developers, and it's essentially an easy way to get file uploads. Done. Also not much information on that. Sandra, what do you think about an app that allows you to upload files easier?

What's easier? So for example, you go onto and you want to upload photos from your Google drive to Morning Makershow. And there's like a, there's like a app that can connect all of your. Stuff together. So it's easier to upload things.

Sandra: I go on morning maker show, but position them where do what with them?

Dan: Yeah. So you want to put an image in a blog post, but the image is in your Google drive. How do you get that image? You need to download it from Google drive, save it on your desktop, then go back to the blog post, then upload it there.

That's like super annoying.

Sandra: Yeah, well, it would be nice.

Dan: I bet there is something like that. I don't know if upload thing does that, but it kind of sounds like this is a common, common use case. And I do it that way. If you think about it, the smart part about that is that you don't have to integrate with all of these services.

Like if someone does the integration part and you know how hard it is to integrate things,

Sandra: right. Yeah.

Dan: And you have access to all of these services, then it's a win win, like the, your users win, cause then all of their files are easily accessible. And then you don't have to do the hard work to integrate it, probably pay some sort of usage amount.

Yeah. I wonder if there's something like this, we need to do research. You need to do the writing down notes, buying domain, done. Don't get me started. I just bought a domain and I need to put something on it. I need to put something on it.

Sandra: Someone needs to stop him because I can't. He's out of the control.

Dan: But you know what I'm doing? I'm, I'm not building big things. I'm just building a small thing that will help my existing apps. That's my plan. That's my goal. And the problem with that is. And I think it's going to be always a problem when you start on an idea. And then as you build it, you get more ideas for it, then it grows and it grows.

And you have to say, no, no, no, this is the, this is the basic thing, uh, but I don't want to build big things anymore. It's too risky. I don't want to spend more than a few weeks on something.

Sandra: Yeah, I agree with you.

The Philosophy of Product Development and MVP

Sandra: Um, this weekend I went fully in understanding what MVP is and I've discovered actually quite cool things about how to build simple things with one feature that does the job. Um, and I really like that idea. And yeah, I think sometimes we even overcomplicate simple things. And I also wanted to understand why are we so good in giving feedback to other people, but then when it comes to our product, we don't, um, have the same approach and from just like sitting and thinking, it got me like, we are very aware of our own workflows and what we need to save time and money and how to fix that.

And that's why we know how to position the product when we have someone asking us for the feedback in our own workflow. But if we are not daily using our own products, it's very hard to understand the customers if you are not expertise in the industry.

Dan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But it's, it's, it's more than that.

It's also the fact that even if you do know what you should be doing, things get in the way. And those things sometimes are yourself and you get sidetracked and you get, you chase shiny things and you do a thing because it's fun sometimes, even though it's not the right thing, but you think, well, this, this is gonna be enjoyable to do today.

So I'm also. You know, thinking I know this is what I should be doing, but no one can tell me what to do. That's the advantage of doing your products yourself. You can decide what the advantage and disadvantage, and you might just go for the fun thing. A lot of the times, even though, you know, it's not right and maybe that's okay.

We need to have fun sometimes too, as long as you accept that and you know, okay, I'm doing the fun thing. It's like a guilty pleasure, but I should be doing this other thing instead.

Sandra: As I said, the fine line between investment and savings.

Dan: Exactly.

Okay. Let's take one more update and then we're going to get to work. We're going to, we're going to crush it this week.

Sandra: Absolutely.

Sandra: Alon.

Google traffic is slowly growing from, but majority of traffic is still, still comes from social media. Right now it feels like it's much simpler and cheaper to get traffic from Pinterest, etc.

than, um, through SEO. I, I mean, I agree with this. I keep repeating that it took me like seven months to even get into SEO with Klu just because it's like a big project and you will see the results, you know, in few months where with social media you are immediately able to see if this post works or doesn't work and then you can experiment even more.

Um, but it's very scary to be dependent on, um, one or two channels for your traffic.

Dan: Yeah, don't you, I mean, Pinterest, I don't know a lot about it, but YouTube needs quite a bit of work as well. Like if you, if you just go and put a video on YouTube, you cannot even put a link, right? As far, I mean, you can, you can mention it in the video, but I don't think you're going to get.

Traffic immediately either. I don't, you need to build these up like the same on Instagram, for example, you need some followers and so on. It's not like you start from scratch with those.

Sandra: Of course, everything needs to build up before.

Dan: But I do agree SEO could take a long time. It doesn't have to, I think you can do a lot in three months, but of course, if you go on Reddit and you, you have a good place to post that maybe allows self promotion, you can get.

The same in 24 hours. So I kind of agree with this SEO is also something you do when you have validated your product and you, you know, you're going to work on it for a while because it does take time and it does take effort to get backlinks and to start writing content and analyze keywords and so on.

And you don't want to do that for a product that you're going to scrap later, in my opinion.

Sandra: I fully agree. It really requires. Yeah, you, you,

Dan: you need to also be in a position where, you know, your, your keywords and your product, if you're going to do it too early and maybe you're going to pivot and think, okay, actually the audience, but you've already wrote in a bunch of content for.

The wrong thing, then that that's also, that's also not going to be great. So plus minus, I think SEO is also good to, at the same time. It's quite funny, right? It's good to. Start early with the backlinks, but maybe not with the content. Backlinks are always good. Even if you pivot, they're still going to be helpful.

Sandra: Absolutely. I agree. I, when I started with SEO, I had a really nice backlinks. Just, you know, if you take a look at the product content, uh, you can easily start working immediately on them and building up for your SEO strategy. Yeah.

Dan: All right, Sandra, enough about the SEO. We need to do work.

Wrapping Up and Gratitude

Dan: I would like to just say thank you to every single beautiful person that has joined us today.

You are the best. Make sure to check out We have past episodes there. Of course we have them on Spotify and Apple podcasts, and I've just published. A few new transcripts today. So they are available on our website. There are links to the updates that we're talking about. That's pretty cool.

And Sandra just sent the best newsletter on the planet. I believe yesterday, make sure to sign up if you haven't, it was so good. It was so good. She was talking about MVPs.

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The whole weekend I've spent trying to figure out what MVP means in 2024 and pretty much it means the same thing.

Just filter it out. That was a good way to put it. But before we end the show, just a small thing. Um, we have amazing sponsors and I really want to thank all of them. Um, today's show was brought from InlineHelp and Posthog. Both of them you need to check out. I will link them down in the comments. Look at me being a professional with these things.

Um, and let's, let's enjoy this week. Let's enjoy this Monday. And one thing that I've learned from today, um, even when it goes bad as me getting kicked from Twitter multiple times during this space, you keep on going people.

Dan: If life gives you lemon, set up a payment link on Bye.

Sandra: See you!

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