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Episode 21 of Morning Maker Show: An Alarm-ingly good episode

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    Morning Maker Show


Dan and Sandra tackle the tumultuous world of alarms, from Twitter trends to personal habits. In between tech updates, they take a closer look into the complexities of startup struggles, from AI recipe generators to the trials of product usage. Let's go!

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Dan: Good morning, Sandra.

Sandra: Good morning,

Dan: Dan. Let's try it again. Good morning, Sandra.

Sandra: Good morning, Dan.

Dan: I, I think you're not as high energy as, as usual. What happened? Well,

Sandra: I just opened Red Bull, so I'll be ready in, like, end of the show. We need to make show longer.

Dan: I need to give you a few minutes.

Well, I also have the coffee going. It's, it's slowly working. I had six alarms this morning. The sixth one worked, so, and therefore we're doing the show. Someone

Sandra: has to explain to me this alarm thing, what is happening on Twitter, because I'm trying to follow up, but I just

Dan: don't get it. Yeah, so there's a trend now, everyone's posting a screenshot of their alarms, and some people have no alarm, some people have an alarm every minute, some people You know, they just, they just don't post at all because they have kids.

Sandra: So what will make me cool? Should I have alarms or not have alarms? What's the, what's the cool

Dan: side of it? I think I'm a bit subjective here, but one alarm every one or two minutes the way to go. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's the cool. That's the cool. That's the pro level. Okay.

Sandra: Now I can fix my alarm schedule and be cool.

Dan: For me. It's a little bit strange. I keep setting alarms, even though I have some, I still want to add a new one. I can't explain it. So I end up with literally an alarm every minute, like there are small gaps, but from, from six to eight, I pretty much have an alarm every minute now, so I can turn it in and I don't like.

Turning the alarm on at a fixed time. You know what I mean? Like 6 30 doesn't work for me. 6 31. That's good

Sandra: But wait a minute. Do you actually use it? Like do you use the or it's just

Dan: a thing? No, yeah, I Use it. Yeah, I use it. I have alarms. I have alarms. Yeah, I wouldn't be here today without an alarm I I like to sleep so Yeah, yeah,

Sandra: yeah, you went too early today.

I was actually scared when I got, um, Twitter notification of you making coffee and I was like, oh my god, I need to rush.

Dan: Yeah, yeah. Some days I'm super motivated, you know, I'm pumped, I'm ready to do it. Speaking about being pumped, I'm really pumped to read some updates. Go, please go. So, Fernando de la Rosa,

he says, I'm really loving the site project so far.

It's the first time I'm working with co founders and we're making progress incredibly fast. I'll share more with you very soon. He's looking at an application called Atagon. And apparently this is a marketing tool and you can see page views, you can see dashboards and you can see some revenue and expenses and charts.

Looks interesting. There is no link whatsoever and my enthusiasm just, just kind of, it's on the floor from the first update now. Fernando, when you listen, tell us what this is. I can't find it on your profile either. It looks cool. Co-founders, huh? That's, that's a, I've always wanted of the good

Sandra: co-founder.

Hey, what am I here? You know, what?

Dan: Am I here? . You know, . What? I didn't, I didn't say you're bad, but you know, last, last show was difficult. last show was difficult for me. What

Sandra: about me? I was sitting

Dan: in a snow. Now you're a great co founder. So if you don't know what Sandra did in the last show, because she unfortunately got lost.

She, she didn't want to cancel or, you know, postpone it. And she literally pulled out her laptop in the freezing cold in Finland. That's. That's how good she is and by the end of it after we turned off the call. She was like my hand is freezing then

Sandra: Yeah, it was actually so bad and then when I went to event I didn't want to talk with my friends Because I blamed them totally for me sitting outside They had no idea what actually happened, but then I have a problem with finding Fernanda tweet Yeah I'm not sure when exactly he posted this, but it's almost impossible to find it on his account.

Dan: Ah, February 17th. Okay, so he posts a lot. I'll, I'll just put it in there. No problem. You want to take the next one? Yes.

Sandra: Pierro.

I'm excited to really reveal my secret pod project to the, to the world today. I'm building Ops, Opsy brain. Um, Opsy. Obsidian and brain, pretty straightforward, right? Let's dive into a small thread to discover the project.

Oh, this looks interesting. Have you used Obsidian?

Dan: I have not, but people told me. It's the best thing ever. I have

Sandra: great things about it as

Dan: well. Yeah, but I went, so here's my problem with Obsidian. I go on the website, and I don't understand what it is. Like, I read it, and then it's one of those where I think, How does this help me?

Like, how do I use this to my advantage? You know what I mean? Yeah. Let's just go on the website. Let's go on the website. Oh, sorry. There might be a police car. So Obsidian, sharpen your thinking. Do you see? Like, what does it mean? What, what? I, of course, I want to sharpen my thinking, fine, but what does it mean in practical terms?

Yeah, drink more water. Private and flexible writing app. Well, excuse me, they need to work on their marketing. Can we, can we say that? Yeah, absolutely.

Sandra: Absolutely. Absolutely. But let's just check out the

Dan: product. So the ultimate productivity template made for Obsidian. So maybe Obsidian is a little bit like Notion?

Because that could that be?

Sandra: It's a Notion. Yeah. It looks something similar to Notion.

Dan: Maybe we're saying something very bad and we're going to get canceled now because

Sandra: of this. Maybe. But manage your to do list, keep track of your goals, fast capture ideas, stay organized.

Dan: Workouts, habits coming soon. You know, it's. It's maybe a little bit like Notion, I think the UI is cleaner, like Notion is very complicated for me. Oh, and he has a screenshot below where he throws Notion in the trash can. So that's why I'm saying, like, the moment we said, this is a little bit like Notion, we probably got cancelled.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra: You cannot say that. So I'm pretty excited how to handle the cancelled situation as well.

Dan: It's the first time you get cancelled? Well,

Sandra: of course, I'm, I'm too good of a person to be cancelled all the time.

Dan: I wish I

Sandra: could say that. I mean, this, this line will be a cancelled line as well.

Dan: I just got cancelled at the beginning of the show when I told you you're not a great founder, so.

Sandra: That's very true as well. Okay, what's the vibe of this episode?

Dan: My problem is I do, I do shitposts every now and then, and that tends to get you cancelled, you know? Yeah. Yeah, shitposts

Sandra: are shitposts and they are really good. I find. We shitposts. Okay, Tikita Tech.

Week 1 done of building 15. Find your front font.

Finance? No. Finance? Fine fineese? I don't know. The future for effortless finding the perfect font. These videos are quick demo of the font finding process and scroll of the landing page aiming to be online in two weeks. How do you read this? Fine fines.

Dan: I think it's finesse. Like is is that like a, oh, I'm gonna get canceled again.

gen Z kind of word . Where? Uh, to, no, no, no, no. That's something else. Like when you finesse this mean you like trick someone. I think like this new vocabulary. Anyway, the way this one works is you. Ask it, you know, give me a font that's scary or, you know, that looks like a Halloween something. And then you actually get recommend so far.

So it's a chat kind of GPT like thingy. Oh, that looks awesome. Yeah, it looks awesome. I, I mean, if we had Good designer here. They could tell us if, if, um, this is useful. I think to me, it's very useful not being that I'm not sure if you're, if you're a designer, you probably know some of your fonts, but everyone else, which is most people find the super useful.

Don't you think?

Sandra: Oh, absolutely. I'm planning to try it after the show, actually. I think, um. I, I don't, I didn't understand the importance of font until Alex actually started talking and trashing my fonts. Since then I'm like very into finding the right font and it does bring such a different vibe and idea to the website.

So I'm definitely going to try this. later on.

Dan: Yeah. She destroyed my fonts too. She said like, it's the laziest choice ever, like the default font that I used. And I was really happy with it. So it was like, well, what is this? You know, all websites have the same font. What are you doing?

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. She's very into fonts and it's really interesting to get a different perspective and understand how important it is.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. So. Speaking about fonts, what font did you use in the newsletter this weekend Sandra? Inter? Yeah, that's the default one that they got bashed for. I was actually very excited to, to mention the newsletter because We should introduce our new sponsor and again, the very cool thing about this is we use products.

So for the newsletter, we've been using Email Octopus since the, since the start and Email Octopus is essentially the way to collect emails, but then also to send them. So they have an API and everything that you can actually tie to your website. Um, When we really like a product, we reach out to the makers of the product and then we actually say, Hey, are you interested in sponsoring the show?

We already use them and talk about them and love their product. And it makes so much sense to, to essentially. Make this official and how is it sending emails with with Email Octopus?

Sandra: So I've been Talking a lot about this email providers because I've been using one for Klu and I've been annoyed by it The moment I started using it.

So when I started working on morning maker show, I decided to take like Experiment and try different ones to see which one is the best And I decided to go with the octopus. It's just nice Like, you know, simple product that does the job, the pricing is excellent, which is the most important thing for me.

As you know, I'm very cheap person when it comes to these things. Also there's an interesting story behind this product because this is a bootstrap product as well coming from the makers from a community. So it kind of everything matches. And as Dan said, there's nothing better than having like these partners, um, that.

You actually use the product, love the product. And then the story telling about the product is so much simpler.

Dan: Yeah, it's really cool. I use it, I use it for my blog. Like six months ago, I've made a blog because I was so afraid that Twitter is going to go down. You know, it was that whole period when it actually did went down some days.

And then I was, Oh my God. If, if I lose everything, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm screwed. So I've created a blog and then used Email Octopus to do the newsletter. Ever since I have posted very little on the blog, which by the way, I should. Um, but it was super smooth to, to set up. So thank you for sponsoring the show, Email Octopus.

We look forward to sending more and more newsletters with it. That's very cool. And the newsletter, Sandra. Opening rate. 70 percent opening rate. I think the newsletter was actually the best one you've done. And I don't know how you switch it up every single edition. It's very good. I think the newsletter itself could be like a case study of how to write Emails and copy, I would sign up for that course.

Are you making that course? No, but maybe. Please


Sandra: The ones that I started.

Dan: You have to finish up three courses before you make that course. Yeah. All right. Want to take the next update by Gabriel?

Sandra: Yes, Gabriel.

What do you use for gathering testimonials? G2, Capterra, or just emails? This is a very interesting one.

Yeah. For me, I've never used or put Klu on Capra or G two . Um, it's always been like through the emails, tweets that people push. Um,

Dan: yeah, product hunt too.

Sandra: Product hunt, of

Dan: course. Do you display testimonials on your homepage?

Sandra: Yeah, but I'm not thinking when did I go to G two or Capra to check it

Dan: out. I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit puzzled by. their business model. Like how, how do they make money? Is this an honest business? I'm always like my first instinct when I hear about these services is they must like do something shady.

I don't know why. It's probably wrong. I'm getting canceled the third time now. For

Sandra: sure. But let me join the cancel club right now. I've been receiving a lot of also messages, um, of just giving a testimonial about the product that I've never used. And then usually people send me a full template, but I need to write.

Yeah. I never like did it because it's just like, I didn't use the product. I have no idea what it is about. Like it would be, I would rather try the product and then just write it down, whatever I think about it.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, for us that we're on Twitter, I think. That also works if, if you get, there's in the, in the comments, CD says he got a testimonial as a reply from Rauch, the CEO of Vercel.

And I mean, you're not going to get him on Capterra to review your product, but I think it's still worth a lot to. To link to that from your product. For sure, for sure. Yeah. There's also Senja or Senja, I'm actually not sure fellow indie makers, um, have built that. And as far as I know, one of the advantages of that is that you can also do video.

Maybe the others can as well. So you can get people to film themselves. And I mean, there's a lot of other features. I know that's. That's getting quite popular now. I'm not sure, I'm not sure I'm going to reach for that anytime soon, but maybe in the future as a consumer, I don't really watch the video of a testimonial.

Do you?

Sandra: No, no, most of the time I don't even read it.

Dan: Yeah, well

Sandra: But you know what I do like When I find on twitter or somewhere just a person randomly talking about the product they like That's when I jumped jump in. Yeah It's not coming from the website. It's not coming from the maker or the company or whatever.

It's just a random person that is giving an honest feedback, not feedback, but just their impressions of the product. And I have great products that way.

Dan: I mean, it's, it's a loving night because you do need a testimonials. Like it, it helps a lot. I'm not sure if people just see that grid and think, okay, there are, there are people using this and they don't even read the thing.

Or they actually do as you do, like, you know, see, oh, okay, this is an honest opinion or this, just scan through it and see, is this actually all fake testimonials or is it, uh, users doing it? So. Yeah, it's a very important part. I'm not sure how much you get to your customers through it, though.

Sandra: I mean, it's super important part, and I think everyone should have testimonials on their website.

But when it comes to other things, like in this case Capybara NG2, I think you just need to allocate time and effort if you do have it. And you want to test that channel and if it's working for your product, I mean, why not?

Dan: All right. I'll take the next one by Arihant Jain.

He's saying, I will create a freelancer platform in 50 days, interesting number, to help developers get clients quickly because new freelancers are not getting work on Fiverr and Upwork. Oh, I didn't know that. How is this idea of a project? Please tell me.

Wow. Yeah. It. It's a sizable project. I think like it. It sounds quite difficult to pull off. And I think the most difficult is how do you get companies on it, because maybe developers you can find.

Sandra: Exactly. What is the process for you, like, or when you were doing like freelancing job, jobs?

Dan: Yeah. Um, so I have.

Two ways to, to get jobs I either reach out to the network. So that's, you know, hardly applicable to anyone else. And you know, initially you do have to reach out to an agency. So when I started in the beginning, I reached out to an agency and then they basically have some offers and they take a huge cut of what you do.

But by doing that for a few years, then you kind of get a network. People know, okay. You, you've been proven to be all right, and two things can happen. Either you get recommended and people reach out to you and you get other jobs, or now that you reach out, you have a nice portfolio as well, because you've already worked for some companies.

You don't need the agency anymore. Don't get me wrong, the agencies are actually pretty good. They get you into places you can't go usually, right? Like if you go into you know, uh, established multi million dollar company, whatever that is. You can't really knock at the door and say, Hey, I do freelance work, do you want to hire me?

They're not gonna care about you. Uh, but I've tried Upwork in the past, maybe 10 years ago, just because it was a bit of a novelty. I think it worked okay, but it depends what you find. Like, uh, if you work for, at the time I was working for someone in the States, and that was understandable, uh, but you can get varying rates there, right?

You can, You know, some people are looking for cheap labor. Some people are, you know, looking for a market price and depends what market price means in your country. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But maybe today, like he's saying that freelancers are not getting work. I think it's. A little bit of a recession in, in the, in the tech industry.

I think there's been a lot of people fired as well last year and from the big companies. I don't know, they probably found a job in the meantime, but things have been slowing down. I don't know if you have the same opinion. Yeah. I

Sandra: don't know much about like the dev side. I know like when we, the only thing that I know that.

When we were hiring, um, I think we got some crazy amount of applications and it was very like niched out and filtered. So, you know, that's when I saw, oh my God, I have no idea how to handle this at all. So, yeah.

Dan: Yeah. Well. I, I don't know if it's, again, applied everywhere. I think these, these kinds of websites, they're very hit and miss depending on your expectations.

So again, if you, if you want to apply for a job with whatever a good salary is in, in your country, you, you might not find that position because obviously everyone's going for the high paid ones. So So then there's the rest that, you know, they're left for everyone else. And you might think, well, I can't find anything because not everyone is willing to pay your rates.

Yeah. So it's complicated with this, but back to building something for it, you know, I think that's a huge challenge, not because you, the technical, uh, challenge of the platform. You can build it. The hard part is that the technical is, you know, 10 percent of it, but the rest is the timing and getting both freelancers and companies at the same time.

So you. actually have momentum that that's either you have a lot of money to do that and you can You know, even if you have a lot of money, you know, it is You don't even know how to spend it to make this happen. Sometimes you need time Yeah, exactly.

Sandra: It takes a lot of figuring out who is the responsible person in the company Is it like if you're talking about the tech?

Is it the tech leader in the team? That's? Putting what they need, or you need to reach out to HR or recorder recorders, or, I mean, there's multiple things you need to figure out with this type of the project in order to bring these companies and the quality of like freelancers as well for you to come to the and use your, use your, use your services, but yeah.

Dan: But yeah, completely agree. It's worth a try. Go for it. I hope I hope you don't spend a lot of time before you, you know, go for it and either succeed or fail quickly. It would be my my takeaway.

Sandra: I would rather also go before building. I would rather go into kind of, um. deep investigation of how to reach these companies and what problem exactly they have in order to pay for your services.

Dan: Yeah. Maybe from that perspective. Yeah. We say this every show, the best way to find the problem is to embed yourself in the community and if you have direct contact. So perhaps before you go into building and, you know, full seam away, you talk to the people first and see. What's actually happening, maybe there is a actual, a problem that you can easily get by talking to developers or even to the companies, um, the companies might be harder to talk to though, but developers, you can, and they can tell you what their problem is and maybe this is it, maybe it's the rates that are bad now, or who knows, maybe.

They, they can't find something in their time zone, uh, and then your app is, you know, find the job in the time zone that you want, and that's the, the niche that you open up. But you need to talk to, to the people that have the problem to find this out. You cannot start building before.

Sandra: Also, a small tip, if you are trying to reach out to people in these companies and you need to kind of investigate more the problem, um, just tell them that you would like to interview them.

Because everyone loves to be interviewed because it has this, um, importance vibe, you know?

Dan: Oh yeah, I see. So it's not, I want to get some information. I want to, you're, you're an interesting person and I would like to interview, to learn more about you, right?

Sandra: Exactly, exactly. Make them feel important.

Dan: Yeah.

All right, Sandra, I want to take the next one.

Sandra: Yes, Patrick Tobler.

Lately, it's been very hard for me to do hashtag building public. I'm behind on literally everything. I feel super unproductive, but it will get better. There's a lot of stuff happening behind the scene, and we'll be able to share more soon.

Um, actually. I felt a little bit this weekend out of touch. It was very hard for me to go on Twitter to, to actually do something. And, you know I think about the reason why there's no actually reason, you know, I love what I do. I love the community. I love to share. I love to write. I love to read.

But then there are days where you just feel. It's too hard to do anything.

Dan: You think you're, you're just a bit tired? That's it?

Sandra: It could have been the reason, you know. Then you just let it go. I went to cinema. I saw friends. I went to gaming night and did all the things, other things that makes me smile. I,

Dan: I totally.

understand what Patrick's saying though. I think, so this week is not that I, that it's hard to build in public, but this, this thing that you're behind on everything is such a common, um, yeah, emotion that I feel as well, because when I start the week, I set off with these grand plans and, you know, not, Not too much in the future, I don't like to do that, but just for the day, I'm going to do this and this today, and by the end of the day, I don't do it, then the other days come and I realize I have other things that are important to do, and I constantly feel behind, but it's only me that sets those expectations really, like no one really makes you have a deadline or, I mean, that should be, it's so strange, like, we are able to set our own deadlines, but we still fail somehow to make them realistic, if that makes sense.

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had the same thing on Friday. I made this list of the things I need to do over the weekend. And this list has been hunting me since Friday. And you feel so bad, um, for not doing them, even though it's totally fine, but it's like, it's a strange feeling. And I always say, put your expectations quite low, and then I break that rule as well.

Dan: Yeah. So keep going. Uh, I'm sure Patrick will, will be back and you know, sometimes you need a little bit of, um, a little bit of a separation from this, take, take some time off and then you'll be back. That, that's also good. It's hard to be back after a while though, and maybe that's what, uh. That's why we feel sometimes that you've been out of it and then you don't have this momentum anymore.

So you have to start over and that's a very difficult thing to overcome and do it. But I think Greg said this at the beginning of the year, uh, he had this article on how to get unstuck. Yeah. Right. And that is just do something, whatever it is that you like, do that, do one thing, and then you'll, you'll slowly gain the momentum and get back to it.

Sandra: Yeah. Fully agree. Fully agree.

Dan: Next one by Serg.

Change my AI recipe generator from dollar per recipe to monthly subscription with three recipes after registrations. With five free recipes, sorry. Let's see how that would work. So, Helps you get unique and delicious recipes instantly.

You'll love this.

Sandra: Unbelievable. I told you about this idea. Actually, not today. Okay, so, on our Discord channel, we have a group. Or a channel called crazy ideas I want to build or something like that. And I was looking one day, I was looking at my fridge and there was nothing in it except maybe eggs, potatoes, something like that.

And I was like, Oh my God, if I had like, I could build a product where I just people put whatever they have in the fridge and we make together a great recipe from it. Do you remember that? You see? Yeah. I love it. I'm going to try it.

Dan: I do. The, the, uh, you know what, sir, you need to increase your pricing. I mean, that is a very, very generous offer.

So he has 3 a month for the start and you get 30 recipes. And honestly. Do you even cook 30 times in a month? I think that's like more than most users do. I certainly don't cook every day. Like if I can, I cook for two, three days you know, so very cool. And you get also recipes in your inbox. That's nice.

Um, that feature, what you're saying, I, I want to see that one day where you, you can also. I think you could take a photo and get the recipe, but of course he probably has a better, algorithm for it. You could do it in chat GPT. I think that was one of the initial. Yeah, yeah. When they announced Dali, Dali is available in it, but it wasn't that good to be honest.

Like I've tried it in my fridge and it was like, okay, that's not, I cannot use this information for anything. So yeah, very cool. Uh, raise your prices. I think you can easily double them search. Um, it's, it's worth a lot. Imagine how much time you save by, by. Doing this, you know, if it works, well, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, or 10, like 10 a month.

That's, that's a nice round number.

Sandra, you want to, you want to tell me a little bit about Startup Stage?

Sandra: Oh, yes. Uh, since I won. I don't know if you guys remember, but last week, Dan and I had a very nice competition or like two weeks ago, but last week, we actually, um, found out the results and I won. So since I won now, I'm in the process off.

So start the stage pretty much works something like you submit your product and then there's a whole week where. It's a competition, you know, people upvoting and et cetera. But the thing is what happens later on. And, um, right now I'm in that stage of later on. Um, and in this stage, they will push kinda my story or hunted space on their own channels.

Um, and that concludes like blogs and, um, their, you know, Twitter account and many, many nice. things as well as the newsletter. So now I'm going into this process of explaining what haunted space is and why did we build it? Even though Dan built it.

Dan: So what, yeah, what, what do I, I don't get anything cause I wasn't in top three, right?

But I tried my

Sandra: best. Well, I told, even though it's your product, but I don't care at this point. It's all about me.

Dan: It was a bit competitive to be honest. Like, uh, I did try, I did try and I got some people to, to come there. But you know, what's the funniest thing is after we did this now I go on the website and when we started this, I would go and it.

I didn't recognize a lot of the products. Now I go and I recognize half of the product. It's, uh, we have, you know, John's Unicorn platform and the, this week's cohort is brought to you by SEO stuff by Yossi. And I feel like it's completely taken over by indie makers. Really cool. I hope

Sandra: Startup Stage will not blame us for that.

Dan: Yeah. Well, what do you mean? It's great. It's the indie makers and the best makers. It's a bit, it's a bit of a, you know, objectively speaking. Yeah. So very cool to see this.

Sandra: Yeah. So I'm excited to see this process now. And I'm actually excited to see the results from it. So,

Dan: yeah. Yeah. So do you know when you're going to get the blog post or it's about to come up?

Sandra: I'm still in the process of like writing it down. And, um, but I want to share with them and how I want to build the story around it. And then we'll see how they're going to push

Dan: it. So is it a bit like an interview type of thing? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Well, let us know when you, when you get something published, I'd like to read it because.

I kind of, I kind of also build a little bit of hunted space. Do you know I'm building version two? That's irrelevant. Can I submit version two and then I win something? No,

Sandra: you can totally submit Klu if you want. I don't care, but this is me. This is about

Dan: me right now. Yeah, I'll play. Okay, you won. Congrats.

How long are you gonna tease me with this? Forever. Okay, I knew you were gonna say that. Next one by Robin Jens.

He's saying Am I the only one who spends a week finding a name for a new side project before even writing the first line of code? Robin, no you are not.

Absolutely not at all. I think we

Sandra: also spent some time for Morning Maker Show. We had different versions of it and then we were sharing different versions of it and then finally we decided. Yeah,

Dan: how was the first name? Do you still remember? Because we, for, I think for four or five episodes, we used the wrong name in the comments.

Yeah, you had

Sandra: your own version and I had my own.

Dan: Yeah, exactly. When we did comments, we weren't settled on the names and we would just copy paste the template and it was the wrong one. No one noticed. Thank God. It was embarrassing. Yeah, it's a

Sandra: little bit embarrassing, but it's the part of the story. But it's interesting.

Um, it's interesting what Robin says and, um, it's such an important part. Off like the whole product, you know, but it's so irrelevant at the beginning.

Dan: Yeah, that's right. Uh, it is. And it's not because. How, how often do you change the name of the product? Right? Cause, cause then you think, Oh, I'll just pick something and change this later.

But do you really change it later? Cause you kind of go with it, you know, I think, but it doesn't really matter. You can name it. You know, I like these ones with animal names in them.

Sandra: Yeah, I don't

Dan: know. You're not, you're not a fan of that? Because they're, they're a little bit more generic, so you can pivot the product. You know, animal, fruit. Really? Yeah, because then it can be anything else later. If, if, if you don't really find the market. And, you know, and I'm, I'm also thinking, uh, Posthog.

And, okay, they're a sponsor, but. It's not about that, uh, the hog part in, in the, um, in the post, I think that's very clever because it also gave them the mascot and the entire visual identity around the product, right? Oh, I

Sandra: love their

Dan: website though. Yeah. And that's what people tell me. Their website is great.

And you remember that website. So the name could be a big deal, but if you're, you know, starting and you don't have, you know, like Like we all did at some point, and you don't have really a good distribution channel, or you don't know what you're doing and don't know if the product is successful, you should skip as much as you can the time you spend on naming, on the logo, on the branding, because it's most likely that that product's not going anywhere anyway, right, so then might as well, you know, ship it fast, realize it's the wrong thing if it is, and if it isn't, you can rebrand.

I think name change is hard, uh, but rebrand at least. You can always do that.

Sandra: But we went from Twitter to X. Yeah. And that was a huge deal. I still call it Twitter though. Me too, me too. There's no chance I'm going to change it to X, and like until there is a proper word for tweets, I'm not doing the X thing.

But if you think about the whole brand identity of like Twitter before changing to X, you would never imagine that such a transition is even possible after so many years being Twitter. Yeah,

Dan: but it's not, I don't really think it's smart. It's so hard to find anything. Because, you know, search on Google for X, it's, I'm not a fan.

Sandra: Wrong side of internet.

Dan: Yeah, I mean, okay, I didn't think, okay, okay. Lex1 by

Sandra: Talar. Um, Salar.

Have you ever used your product? Um, this is such a good question. Um, and first of all, yes. Like Klu is such a big part of like I don't do search anymore when it comes to the cloud based apps But then also there's one great thing when you are using your product because you're pretty much especially on daily basis Because then you're pretty much putting yourself in your customer shoes or user shoes so you can easily notice any problem Because when you're doing testing of your app, the it's totally different because you are testing something.

So your expectations are different than the user ones. And this is where you kind of create a false image of your own product. But if you use your products on a daily basis, you are using it as a customer would. And you have such a different perspective of the product.

Dan: Don't you think that's a risk? That when you use your own product, you stop thinking about the customer, as you say, and you kind of think, kind of think that the product is good based on your own experience, if you know what I mean.

Sandra: I don't know, but I've, for me, it was like when I've noticed many, many issues and bugs we had when I was using product on a daily, um, on a daily use rather than just testing certain features, but better, I don't know, in that sense.

Dan: Yeah, yeah, I yeah, I completely agree. You also talk with your with your users.

Oh, yeah, pretty much on a daily basis. So you have I think lower risk, but on one hand, on the other hand, you might actually become a little bit out of touch and think, okay, we need to build this thing because you need it, but not because your users need it, if you know what I mean.

Sandra: Oh, no, no, no. I stopped with whenever someone mentioned me some kind of feature, I'm red in my face, like don't come to me with the feature things.

Actually, that happened last week. I was, you met Will Dan, so I was talking something with Will Dan, and he got excited about the feature. And I'm like, no, no, no, let's go back. Let's go back on the beginning of the conversation. Let's go not go into that feature section.

Dan: Actually, this is, I want to ask, how do you prioritize this?

How do you select those that? Actually make more sense for the product until

Sandra: I'm like, I mean, until we are 100 percent sure that every feature we have in Klu works perfect perfectly. I mean, whatever perfect means, but we, you do have certain expectations from each feature and how you measure the success of this feature until we have this 100 percent on each of them.

I don't feel comfortable about adding anything more because each feature has its own flow and it's very hard if you're not. If you don't go deeper and think how this feature fits the whole product, section of the product, just it's very risky

Dan: game. So you're at a different stage of maturity where you think every single thing you add might actually make an experience worse for some users that that expects quality and things to be smooth and it's not.

Worth adding a feature that makes the base experience worse, essentially, right? Exactly.

Sandra: Exactly. I mean, we are still struggling. With like chat side of Klu. Yeah. So even that has multiple things that we need to fix around and, you know, just build a better flow for the chat itself. And this one feature has a total group of users or target audience than the search feature.

So there's like two, two different things, you know, that pulls also marketing, but the product itself. Yeah.

Dan: So at the end of the day, what you do is you look at your main target groups and think, okay, this feature doesn't address the main target group we, we aim for. And then if it doesn't, you don't build it because it's just going to distract you from your goal.

Sandra: Exactly. Because then you are pulling another group of people and you don't know if you have reached out to them. Do you have them already as a user base? Like there's so many things you need to discover, but.

Dan: Yeah. Sandra, thank you so much for joining me today. It was a pleasure as always to, to, to talk to you.

I think you're the best founder I've, I've, I really do. I

Sandra: was, I had a line in my head, he doesn't say anything about that.

Dan: Oh, I, I saved it right at the end. You did it. You did a good job, Dan. Thank you everyone for tuning in. You are absolutely the best. Thank you for supporting the show and thank you to our members and our lovely sponsors.

We have past episodes on Spotify and Apple podcasts and of course the newsletter as well. Go to to get all of that. It's right there for you and we have transcripts too and with funny typos.

Sandra: My favorite one. Also next Friday episode, we are bringing the guest. So it's not going to be only Dan and me here chatting and reading updates.

We're going to have someone with us. So I'm super

Dan: excited about it. We're doing a guest. It's, it's Dagobert. You probably know him. He just quit his job and he's gonna, he's gonna tell us what he's up to. I can't wait. It's going to be an awesome show Friday.

Sandra: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. We need to prepare some

Dan: memes.

Yeah. Yeah. Please prepare your best memes. Yeah.

Sandra: Okay, let's go hit this week and be successful and great and cry later on and have fun on Friday.

Dan: Let's do it. Have an awesome week everyone. Bye. Bye bye.

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