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Episode 2: Morning Maker Show: challenges of lifetime pricing, AI adoption and marketing for solo developers

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Summary

A rollercoaster ride of website building updates, lifetime pricing debates, and AI adoption insights. Sandra shares invaluable post-launch strategies! 🎙️✨

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Transcript

Dan: Good morning, Sandra.

Sandra: Good morning, Dan. How

Dan: are you? I'm fine. I forgot how to pin something to the space. I knew it for five seconds yesterday how are you this morning? We had a long evening slash night last

Sandra: night. Yeah, I mean I'm doing, I mean, I woke up. That's really important, but I woke up really late.

Yeah, that's kind of problematic. But yesterday we had a really nice session and now officially a morning maker show has its own website.

Dan: That was crazy, huh? That's so, so we just went in a space, maybe some of you joined. And we were like, let's make the whole thing. Let's figure out the name. Let's figure out the logo.

Let's we do the branding. We do the text and we build a website. And then we had, I think one bonus point or two bonus points to make the newsletter. And that like worked really, really well. And then we were like, let's keep going. And then we also made. Episode into a post and then we put the audio recordings as well on the website.

And then what, Oh, and we have the transcript as well. And we, we, we also got Alex on, and I was like half an hour of what you did, this kind of shit. But uh, it was great. It was like, you know, building in public. But for real. Oh, but for real. Yeah, you are brilliant.

Sandra: Dan is brilliant. When he says we did it, he means I did it.

But I was a great supporter in the process. But yeah, it was really fun to see what we can achieve in like an hour. Yeah.

Dan: So thank you. It's like, it's, but it's even addictive like doing, doing a website with Shipixen

Dan: So that was like. The quickest part and now I'm like, let's do another one. Let's do another live stream And let's make another project because it's, I don't know, I'm addicted to it and it's

Sandra: really, really fast.

I knew that you build this and I knew that you build it for people to build it in five minutes, but it was actually like five minutes. So I was questioning everything like from the marketing perspective, you know. Yeah. But yeah, I think the most of the time actually took the copy and copy and the design itself.

Yeah.

Dan: Yeah. And you know why? And I really, I think we missed an opportunity. We should have used branding five to get a lot of the copy and to get a lot of the messaging. But we did it ourselves and that was, yeah, that was kind of slow, but it's really funny. Like the technical part didn't matter. It was so quick.

The, the hard part was, okay, how do we want this to look? What's, what's the vibe? And also, you know, the, the logo and fonts, all my kind of fonts. A

Sandra: while. Oh, I don't wanna talk about fonts at all.

Dan: No, no. So, yeah, that might change, but for now, I think it looks great. It's a fantastic website. So morning maker show.com.

Go and check it out. Let us know what you think. And let's get into episode two. Do you wanna read the first one, Sandra?

Sandra: Yeah. Liz, today we have Philippe Keller with us here. I want to be featured in the show, hashtag building public.

Dan: I can only, so when he says the show, I mean, there are two options. It's either our show or the CNN morning show.

Which one do you think it is?

Sandra: I'm going to be very realistic here and say, of course, we know the answer to that. Only show at 9. 30 in Helsinki time and 8. 30 in Copenhagen, and we had a show last night, so. It

Dan: is, of course, of course, the best show, I think on Twitter, but maybe, maybe in general. I mean,

Sandra: yesterday I compared it to Super Bowl, so maybe that's a little bit unrealistic, but, let's say it on Twitter, at least, or

Axel.

Dan: Yeah, we're there, yeah. All right, let's just take the next one. We don't have, we don't have a sponsor for today. We'll figure it out during the show. Sergiu I know Sergiu. He's, he's very, very cool and active guy in the community. And he says You don't need a fancy desktop to be successful.

You just need a laptop, your girlfriend's chair, and a startup idea. Now, my question is, does it need to be your girlfriend's chair or can it be any chair? That's, that's what I want to know. No, it has to be your girlfriend. Yeah, that's kind of, I also see, you know, there's a, there's a coffee cup as well. And I believe, I wonder, this is, I see LevelsIO's uh, avatar.

That might be his his past workspace. And I think he did quite well. I think he, he's all right. So. What

Sandra: about the people that don't have girlfriends and boyfriends and we still need a chair

Dan: at back. Yeah. It doesn't, I think those could be successful too, right? I, I think, you know, maybe, maybe they'll have a bad back because of that, but.

Still successful. I'd say, Hey, Sandra, are you, are you doing are you doing comments when I talk about an update? Cause I kind of forgot about that. So people can follow along.

Sandra: Yes. I mean, do I post people post in the comments? Yeah.

Dan: Okay, good. Cause I completely forgot about that. Well done. Well done. All right.

We have the next one by Milly. Do you want to take it? Yes. Oh,

Sandra: I cannot read that. Word

Dan: vulnerable. Okay. So you say the first two and then I say it. So go. My most vulnerable

Sandra: building public update yet 8, 875. That's how much I've paid myself since June 2022. It's covered my basic expenses, just contrary to popular opinion or what the gurus may have you think.

Being a founder truly isn't that glomer, glamorous. If you want to make a stack of cash much faster and safer way is to land a well paying job. Sure, the upside may be worth it. Maybe you get acquired or merge or hit the jackpot with a product that sustains profitability over decades. But that's a big maybe.[00:07:00]

So you might ask, why on earth do I do it? Okay,

Dan: so it's a long post. I'll stop you. I think we can actually unpack it already. I hope I didn't. Yeah, there's please go ahead. I posted it. Please go ahead and read the entire thing. I skimped through it. Man, this hits so hard. Like we've haven't we all been there, you know, when, when, when you think, God, this is, this is really hard.

And. It takes such a long time before you see anything coming out of it. And you think, yeah, it's it's easier to do just the job. Then what do you think? It's not an

Sandra: easy decision to make, to go into this journey. If you are kind of not ready or you have some extra cash to kind of lay on, because this can

Dan: be very hard.

Yeah. My. My approach so far was, you know, to, and there are different types of people, but my approach was to not go. All in and to, to still have some sort of income source and maybe that's better. Maybe that's not, I mean, it depends how you think, because that might also not motivate you too much, but then you, you have a bit, a bit less to worry about, you have a longer runway and then.

You can build at your own pace.

Sandra: Exactly. And just because you know that you still have something on the side, you can relax and maybe do a better work that is not so under the pressure for your side project, you know? Okay. Okay.

Dan: Okay. There's a lot of there's a lot of. Love for, for the show, I can read the next one real quick from Carl Popa.[00:09:00]

Huh. Good we, we know Carl, he's, he's. The most friendliest and nicest guy in the community. If you don't know him, go ahead and follow him. He's saying these two are trying to bring back Indie Hacking and build in public in the most endearing and organic way possible. Tune in every Monday and Friday for 30 minutes and bring your own coffee.

This is so sweet. Thank you so much, Carl. rEally, really nice of you to, to write this and I don't know if you could tune in. I think he's in Singapore and I have no idea what time zone is there. He might not be able to join, but really, really sweet to, to see this. Thank you so much. Thank you, Carl.

All right. Sandra, will you take the next one by Mattia? Yeah.

Sandra: Yeah. After getting 70 users on super dash, I'm trying to figure out what they are and what and what they are looking for. I reach out by email but got very few response. Now I'm trying this survey pop out on the website as an experiment.

What do you think? What would you do? I saw this. So just quickly quickly. It's very interesting. So Mattia is having a website. People are not responding on his emails. He wants feedback. So, so he made a nice pop out on his own website to get to get the feedback. As an experiment, but yesterday I saw Nico doing it in his own web app, and I thought it's brilliant.

So okay, but yeah, how to collect 70 people to give you feedback. Giving feedback is really hard. If you like, if you have this first 70 users, and you don't actually know them, not personally, but you have chatted with them before, it's going to be really hard. Okay. Just by emails and we took out to them to get that initial feedback.

Dan: Yeah. I Mean, how do you, how do you do this in a nice way? Because it's very easy to be annoying with this or, you know, when I, when I go. Not necessarily on this service, on any service, really. I want to do what I'm set out to do in the service. And when I get this pop up, I'm like, just dismiss it. Let me do the thing that I want.

So I, I think it's very challenging to do this. No matter how you do it, I

Sandra: don't know, my brain is already washed by the marketing and I'm that type of the person that I'm used to the pop ups. And now I don't see them as a customer anymore. I see them as Oh, what can I learn here?

Dan: So you're just feeling the idea.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah,

Sandra: it's like measuring how it looks like, how it makes me feel and etc. So I'm not the right to tell you what's good or bad. Yeah, because We put them everywhere every week. But there, there needs to be a right balance. Definitely. If the user is coming for the next five days, every day to your app, then the pub needs to come.

And then you need to ask the question, like, why you are coming? Tell me, why are you coming? Because maybe I don't know, you know, so maybe pretty much that's right. Balance should be there.

Dan: Yeah, completely agree. Yeah, I, I have to admit. I don't know of a good way to do this. And then when I will need to do it, I will just give you a call, Sandra.

I think everyone should give you a call when they need it. You'll answer right. Yes, I'm doing

Sandra: free calls all

Dan: the time Perfect All right. Next one. I can just take quickly I will I will I will probably mess up. Wow Wow, wow. Hmm. Wow is update Is just published my first ever Tik Tok and man, I feel some FOMO.

I'm not, I'm not gonna lie. I am not on Tik Tok, but I think I maybe should be. I see everyone's using it and say, Oh my God, the conversion is huge. And there's so much engagement and it's the best thing since sliced bread. I don't know. What, what do you think? Did you ever think of? Doing some TikToks, joining that, seeing if, if you can market there.

Well

Sandra: well, I'm, I'm very scared of video marketing. It takes a lot of time. It's, it's, it's, it's, there is a process. So there is a thinking, what kind of video you want to make. Then there is making the video. And then there is a little bit of editing to be done. That's too much work. But I've talked to Clara and she's doing that and she's seeing some really nice results.

So it's always an option or a good channel for someone who is hanging out there. And so I don't

Dan: mind it at all. Yeah. It's, it's it's, it depends on the product, right? Maybe not all products could go there. I don't know what I'm talking about, but maybe some of them are not such a good fit. I'm not, I'm not sure.

If you could do clue there, or it depends what type of tone you have in your marketing, perhaps, or what do you think

Sandra: you're having a SAS company that is not related or doesn't have a target audience directly on Tick Tock. Yeah, you can always find it if it's a niche one, even better. But in most cases, I've seen bigger company presenting their teams in funny and cute way on Tick Tock.

Yeah. That was an interesting perspective, but I don't think for Clue at the moment, I have much to do on TikTok.

Dan: Yeah, so all of my stuff is developer focused, and I think there is a niche there. When you said niche, there could be This developer niche to, to target, but really, I don't even know where to start.

If everyone, anyone in the, in the chat knows how TikTok works at all, or has some suggestions on where to start, please let me know. I would, I'd be interested to see if I can target the developer community. All right, let's take the next one, Sandra.

Sandra: Yes, Fabian decided to add a lifetime pricing to the paywall for Or Superbowl instead of only offering money and yearly don't we all have enough subscriptions already?

What do you think? Also, don't miss the test flight launch.

Dan: Hmm. Ah. Ah. Ah, this is touching a lot of, a lot of topics.

Sandra: Lifetime pricing. I have tears in my eyes

Dan: actually. Let's see what, so Superwall, let's see what type of app this is, because I agree, this is what I did with Clover. So Superwall lets you configure and test every aspect of your paywall without chipping up updates.

So, it could be one of those services that doesn't have a huge cloud or now AI. Costs, you know, where you can actually figure out a good model for the lifetime pricing and, you know, in five years, not go bankrupt because you have a huge cost on a third party or cloud service. Yeah, my problem with cover was that even if you do lifetime, you know, you need to be, you need to put it quite high because.

You still have to maintain that thing and you still have to add features. And then if you price it too low, it's going to be a lower incentive to do so. Or you're going to think, okay, I'm, I'm doing this, but I need to sell an incredible amount of these for it to make sense to, to, to keep adding features and so on, so it's very tricky to find the right.

Pricing, I think I, I,

Sandra: I agree with you and like, it's also hard to change, go back and I'm not a fan at all of lifetime pricing, only if it's really fits the product, but I've never, I mean, never, I've seen very few that actually makes sense for the lifetime pricing. Yeah, it does. I mean, don't get me wrong.

It does make sense for the customer. But for a person building, it's always very tricky for me to understand it, but you

Dan: couldn't, you couldn't do this for clue, right? Because you, you're going to have the AI costs. No,

Sandra: no, no, no chance. Yeah. What about

Dan: about this middle ground where you have? For a lifetime, but you don't get updates after a while or, or, you know, it's, it's, it's more like lifetime for a certain version.

And then after 2 years, let's say you can still use that version, but you don't get the new one and you need to upgrade or get. Something I think someone that did this was sketched on app. I don't know the design software. Is that a good idea or not?

Sandra: I, it's too risky for me. I, it would be too risky

Dan: for me.

Yeah, you're, you're fully on the SAS subscription

Sandra: train. I'm sorry. My heart is already taken. I mean, it again, it makes sense for the customer, but I, I, I don't, I, I'm having a hard time kind of like justifying it. Yeah.

Dan: I'd be super curious to, to talk with, with, with Fabian and see, you know, how did he, he probably made some calculations and it might make sense because this is, it's super interesting.

So good luck to him. I hope it works out and I hope this brings him a lot more customers. I definitely agree with the sentiment. Like whenever I write, you know, I'm tired of subscriptions and so on. Everyone's saying the same. There is a fatigue of subscriptions because everything's a subscription now.

And you actually just bite this with the lifetime um, deal, you could get a lot of customers, but you also have to be sustainable doing. So there's no point to have, you know, lifetime customers. And then after a year, close it down because. Yeah, so yeah, I'm sure he calculated that I can see it work out, but it's, it's also not a easy calculation to make because you need to predict how many people buy it as well.

Okay. Next update by Steph, Steph codes. You wanna. You want to take this one too? Yeah

Sandra: Steph Coates is saying, I think we are overestimating how many people are actually adopting and using AI data. My friends and family have either never used chat GPT or have heard of it and are too skeptical to try it.

Those of us playing with AI in hashtag build in public are essentially on the For forefront of innovation when it comes to building new use cases for this amazing tech, you're struggling to find users of your AI says, don't stress your fruit. Future customers may still not have fully adopted to the idea of using AI day to day.

I mean, this is brilliant. I really, when I read this and I read it, I mean, I see. Yeah, I read it a few days ago and I really, really liked. Yeah. Because I never thought about it. We are so deep into this AI and we are using it daily and we are implementing it in our, into our own products. And then when you step back and when, when you read something like this, you realize there's a bunch of people that have no idea what we are talking about.

Dan: Yeah. Chat GPT what? Yeah.

Sandra: So it's, it was really nice to read this. It, it, it, it actually kind of gave me a little boost, so thank you.

Dan: Yeah. I completely agree. Like, okay. First of all, I have to make a comment that it's always surprising to me how much good content there is on the building public hashtag.

It's just, I I'm blown away. And this was a, this was an awesome piece.[00:22:00] I think Steph is definitely right. We're, we're at the forefront here, but there's still, there's still a lot of people building in the space because, you know, it's like the gold rush. It's, it's, you don't know who's going to make it or not.

So there's still a lot of competition, but you know, a lot of the conversations happen between those that build things. And then when it comes to, to the users, yeah, it is still a bit of a niche, but I have to say, It's becoming more and more rare to find people that don't know what ggpt is, you know, like the parents know I think they don't use it.

That's true, but they have heard about it. No, it's in the news because I don't even know how many they have millions of users. I think,

Sandra: yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I, I have this thing. Just just a small thing. I go to my mother is very into dieting and feeling healthy and doing all of this crazy stuff. So I go to her place.

I open my charge g pity, and I start calculating how much weight she needs she has, and how much she needs to lose and what food. And she's like, oh my God, you're so quick. And I, I'm like, I know. I'm so smart. It's actually charge g pity. I haven't told her yet, but moving on to the next

Dan: one, the next one by Daniel.

Daniel, he's, he's also an awesome person to follow, not only for, you know, the. The tips and the journey itself and the apps he makes, which are all great, but also for the jokes and the fact that, you know, there's the occasional shit post that really makes me chuckle. He's, he's a really funny guy too, and a very nice guy as well.

So Daniel says, I set out to launch three new products this year. I've launched two, luckily, both are profitable. That is brilliant. Brilliant. That's a hundred percent success rate, huh? I don't see that often. And I'm going to launch another one this month before the year end, which is in either this week or next week because the year is ending very soon.

What's your plan for the last month of 2023? So first of all, congratulations again, Daniel I can't wait to, to see your third app. I imagine it's not going to be a massive thing, but let's see. It's it's so, it's so nice to see people succeeding and then following Daniel's journey and his apps. I use his, one of his apps I use, I think I may be.

Used K tool as well. And PDF pals I got from, from setup as well. That that's called using as well. I basically tried all of his stuff and it's all awesome. And he's really taking care of the product after he's launching as well and adding features, modifying all the time. That, I don't know. I, I'm just, I'm going now.

I like Daniel. What are your plans for the last month of 2023, Sandra?

Sandra: Well, I am going on this well, I, oh, no. Well, I'm going to Austria to Vienna for the new year.

Dan: Are you going to meet, are you going to meet some some people?

Sandra: Yes. Our sponsor in Vienna from Oscar Stories.

Dan: You're gonna finally get the payout from our sponsor, Oscar Stories.

Yeah,

Sandra: yeah, I'm bringing the money home.

Dan: Yeah, great. So, I think this is another amazing thing. Since building in public, I've actually met a ton of people in person, including yourself, Sandra. Hi. anD you're going to meet two more, Matt and Dima, doing Oscar Stories, today's sponsor. Thank you for sponsoring again.

And there was this drama. I'm not going to get too much into it, but someone, someone said, you know, I'm not on here to, to make friends. I'm here to make a business. Did you see that? Yes, I saw that. Hard to miss. Hard to miss. Hard to miss. Hard to miss, yeah. Do you agree with that? No,

Sandra: I, I, when I, when I jumped on this journey, I never, I had some friends.

I think I had told you last night, she's a streamer and she has all of these online friends and I would look at her and I would be like, Oh my God, poor girl. And then I went, I went into Twitter and I, I. So this community, and then you kind of like interact with these people on a daily basis, and then you start chatting, and then there is this closer connection.

And then you go to Copenhagen, and this person is waiting with, waiting you with two mojitos. Iced tea. And the flag. Sorry. And it's flag. And you're like, what the hell just happened? So like it's, it's, it's much more than just forming business connections and whatever. It's about learning from each other.

And. You know, being together and seeing each other and it's just wonderful.

Dan: I completely agree. I've made such amazing friends as well. And I think, I think everyone has, even though, yeah, we're, we're also building a business and and it is, you know, part of what we write is to get people to look at what we build.

That's a, that's true. I mean, we, we shouldn't pretend it's not. The reason why we, why we post is so, you know, people look at our stuff. But if it's just that, I don't think you're gonna get that far. I mean, of course you can, you can post, you know, helpful guides and so on and, and still. Be part of the community, but to be truly there, I, I think you need to give a little bit of yourself, a little bit of your personality, a little bit of how you are, and also give something back in whatever form it is.

I, let me just give an example. When someone launches a new product, it's, it's very common that, that you want someone to test and that takes a lot of time and you want to get some early feedback as well. Um, You know, I, I'm always up for testing something because I think you're like this too. I'm just excited about new products, trying them out, seeing what they can do.

And just doing that, just, you know, being helpful with that, which is such a huge help for the person building, being available to, to test out an app. That's it, you know, and then you're not building your business anymore. Then you're slowly getting, I even think it's hard just to build the business. You know, you need to be pretty much a robot to do that.

So, and I would encourage people to, to also. Participate in this kind of stuff, participate and feedback and so on and so forth and get to know people like the way the way we got to know each other was because you were launching clue and I was saying, Oh, this is a cool product. I tried it out and then I followed.

You know what I followed your launch and what you're building and then now we're basically best friends and doing the show. So

Sandra: yeah, yeah, I fully agree with you. I think we all should give, um, some, some of our time to trying out. I think what I have experienced with pool. The only reason and I've already talked about this.

Someone asked me, are you only in build in public community to to market clue? And I'm like, do you really think that the clue would be successful only from building public community? Like, it's crazy to think that, but the reason why clue took off, it was because of the community. It was because of the people that interacted with the product and gave me the feedback and actually cared.

You know, and then you understand that there's the, the, how your product works. And that's really nice, but that's like 20, 30, 40, a hundred people. There there's a long way, there's a long way to make something successful. And I think the support system, we give it to each other. It's really important, the honest feedback you give to other person, so it's, it is a two way

Dan: street.

Yeah, it's getting the momentum is so valuable when you're launching something and you don't know if this is going to work at all. Getting the momentum is, is even if those people are cheering for you is so important because Like we saw the, the previous update, it's, it's a roller coaster. And in your lowest moments, if you don't have anything, then you'll think, okay, what's the point of building this at all?

It's not going to work. Right.

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. You need to have that initial, initial kind of like feedback and base.

Dan: Yeah. Okay. Let's take one more. We'll, we're a little bit over time, but we had one minute late and then I rambled about the website that, that we've built. If you haven't checked it out, by the way.

morningmakershow.com and please subscribe to the newsletter. What are we doing with the newsletter, Sandra?

Sandra: In the newsletter, every person that we mentioned during the space, their tweets gonna be there. And of course, the, the, the space itself and transcript

Dan: we're, we're gonna set that up today.

Maybe, huh? Not transcript, not the summary close enough. We're gonna send the transcript to people. I think it's gonna be a pretty long read, huh? Yeah, that's a blog, that's a blog. Yeah. So go on the website and sign up for the newsletter and let's go for the last one, Sandra, do you want to read this?

Sandra: Yes.

Alex Mano is saying, taking a moment to appreciate the hashtag building public community of solo developers. What's the lab, what's a valuable lesson you've learned from fellow SaaS creators? They don't quit.

Dan: They don't, it's not, it's not easy to quit. Everyone in the comments is saying consistency.

Don't quit. You know, I think, so first of all, it's so nice to, you know, take a moment to appreciate that. That's great. a Lot of people are mentioning marketing and then that it's hard as well. I agree. I think. If, if that was my lesson here is spend time to get better at marketing. I don't even know, you know, there's probably proper ways to learn it.

I learned it you know, the, the wrong way where you try things and maybe something works, then you go a bit deeper into a topic that you know more. But marketing is so important. Even if you have the best product ever, you won't make it without marketing it. So.

Sandra: Yeah, and that's why I always mentioned product content, how it's important to put time and effort into just preparing for the launch, not launching on product, but just the preparation is, I think, for the solo solo developers, especially that it's the first initial contact with marketing, and you can kind of feel it beforehand before launch.

Product hunt. So take your time two, three weeks before, what,

Dan: before, what do you do, you know, as a solo developer or designer or whatever, builder, you do, or no, you do, everyone goes through product hunt, and, you know, it's a bit of a crash course, and you're probably not going to do that. Well, the first time, what do you do after though?

Like, you have the spike excitement and so on. Where do you pick it up? Like if there's one thing to do, what would you say? It is Sandra after you. Yeah.

Sandra: I think after you launch a product and you got a nice amount of people that actually landed and try the product. You, you stay in touch with them.

You continue with working with them as much as you can. And I think that's the hardest process because usually people don't reply to your emails when you ask for their feedback. So

Dan: which we just saw 20 minutes ago. Yeah.

Sandra: Yeah. I think that that initial launch needs to, you need to be the person who has contacted these people.

You know that these people might stumble of the problem that you are selling the solution for. That's why it's important to have those two weeks before where you are contacting these people, going into the conversation with these people. So they know once your launch is ready, they know they need to try the app, but also you are still in the contact with them.

After the product launch and that's important and then keeping momentum and building that marketing side of the story, finding the right channel. If you know that these people are on this app or on that app, kind of holding that momentum continuously after the launch. And that's really hard because if you are solo developer, founder, whatever, there's a bunch of feedback.

You need to build this or fix that. There's a bug or whatever, but there needs to be an hour a day where you spend your time on the right channel, reaching out to people. And it's always, at the beginning, it's always reaching out. It's not a blog post. I mean, I started this SEO journey, like what, nine months.

From from initially starting clue, so I didn't even put the time and effort into content marketing whatsoever, because I knew it's a long, long, you know, seeing results from this, it's going to be next six months, probably, you know, so I wouldn't even put so much time and effort, it would be initial context that you are forming relationships at the beginning and then continuing doing that relationship after the launch and then finding the channels.

But yeah,

Dan: I think this is Absolutely amazing tips. I'm blown away. Very well done, Sandra. I thought you were going to give a shallow answer, just say like, Oh yeah, just do Google Ads. Have a nice day. Goodbye. This was so good. And completely agree. Yeah, completely agree that you ride that wave and you get in touch with users and you get to talk to them once you have them.

That's such good advice.

Sandra: It needs to be a relationship. Yeah.

Dan: Yeah, especially because you at that point, you don't know exactly in which direction to go. So what's the best way? As you say, it's very hard to get people, you know, to, to respond to a mass email or, you know, even if you put the feedback on your website, uh, or maybe it's too late because you've been through a lot, you already have the users that.

yOu know, product hunt is a spike, but a lot of those users they might try it out and not even return at all. If you don't get in contact and then you don't know why, because you haven't talked to them. Brilliant, brilliant feedback. Okay. I think this, I could keep going on for, for hours. The building public feed always surprises me.

I think that's it for today. Sandra, you need to go do some work as well. I need to. I think the next episode, I hope I hope you'll join us then. It's going to be Tuesday surprise. And I didn't tell you because I'm going to, I'm going to be flying out. I hope, I hope that's okay. But surprise, I hope the

Sandra: show there are priorities.

Dan: Yeah. I mean, I don't think I can do it from the airplane, but. It would be a pretty cool episode, wouldn't it? Yeah. Oh, it's on Tuesday. Yeah, remember to go to the website morningmakershow.com, sign up for the newsletter so you know when upcoming episodes will be there. And also check out the previous episodes on morningmakershow.

com. We have The pilot and episode one ready for you there to listen if you didn't didn't catch them great episodes. I think, you know, same high quality stuff CNN level reporting as as we do. Go ahead and listen and I will wish you a great weekend and all the best. Good luck in what you're building and talk to you next time.

Sandra: Yes. Thank you, Dan. Thank you all for joining. And he's, I wanted that button, but it's not a YouTube channel, but morning maker show. com and give us your email so we can send you all the updates on building public. Bye. See you. Bye.

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