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Episode 19 of Morning Maker Show: Sandra Steals the Spotlight (again)

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    Morning Maker Show


Hold onto your hats as Dan and Sandra navigate through indie mishaps with a squeeze of lemony humor discuss a wide range of topics related to indie product development, marketing, user experience, and day to day challenges of indie makers.

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Sandra: Um, do you want to start because you lost?

Dan: Oh boy, it's going to be a long show.

Sandra: Some technical difficulties.

Dan: I put the technical music.

We'll be back in one minute.

morning, Sandra good morning, Dan. How are you? You did just fine Monday

Sandra: morning. I'm really good. I'm like really, really good. I don't know. Do you want to know immediately why I'm so

Dan: good? Please tell

Sandra: me Okay, ladies and gentlemen last week we have um, Kind of competed with each other dan and I on startup stage and guess who won Not me Not Dan, it was me, and I need to post that in the, under the comments because I want everyone to see that.

I totally won on startup stage, um, with Hunted Space, and I feel so good about it. Um, so let me just share it to everyone to see.

Dan: Oh my god, is it, is the whole show going to be this? Because You know, I'm trying to not be mad a little bit, but I almost thought, I'm not doing the show with Sandra today, she can just do it alone.

I mean, come on. And I'm behind a lot of votes.

Sandra: Um, yeah, you totally lost. And I'm enjoying this a little bit too much. What's wrong with

Dan: me? I'll just stay here in silence, okay? And you can do the show.

Sandra: Well, what can I say to you? You know, hunted space is hunted space and people love hunted space and it's such a good product.

So we won.

Dan: There's still half an hour left though. So maybe, maybe I can still make it. I don't know. I'll think of something in the show. And

Sandra: let me share also the link because I want people if there's 30 minutes

Dan: more.

Oh boy. I'm trying to be graceful about it. You know, just if you were in my position, I don't think you would have been that nice.

Sandra: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I would use these 30 minutes to probably close the show, send few emails, reach out to people.

Dan: Yeah. So I'm really happy for you, Sandra. You know, I'm really happy.

Good, good work.

Sandra: Thank you, Dan, so much. I really appreciate your honesty here.

Dan: Okay. That being out of the way, and please do not mention it ever again, can we do some updates and see what people were building?

Sandra: Absolutely. Um, do you want to start because you lost?

Dan: Oh boy, it's going to be a long show. Mansour, he's saying

What's stopping you from coding while you're driving?

And he has A photo of his laptop in front of the steering wheel, coding, hopefully not while driving. The first thing that comes to mind is perhaps police.

Sandra: What did you say? Sorry, there was a slow internet connection again with

Dan: Denmark. Oh, not in Denmark. I thought the first thing that's stopping me from coding in the car is police, I'd say.

The second thing is I actually don't have a car. I

Sandra: just wanted to say that owning a car is one issue that I

Dan: have. How is it to own a car in Finland?

Sandra: Very expensive, I would say. And there's no point, actually, of owning a car in Finland. Like, we have a very good public, um, system of transport. And there's just, makes no sense to have a car.

Dan: Yeah. How much is the tax for a car? Okay. We're getting into, I really want to know because I, I can't wait to tell you how nice it is in Denmark. Like people come in Denmark just to get a car. It's so nice. But tell me, tell me, do you know?

Sandra: Yeah. No. Um, so I mean, when I was in Denmark, it seems like you have more, um, bikes than cars.

And I think it's more dangerous to drive in Denmark. And I'm not joking about this. I was actually scared of walking. Because I was, I thought that someone will kill me on the bike. But in Finland, um, when I, when I, um, Took my driving license. I bought a car. It was very cheap car. Like, I think I gave 800 euros for it or something like that.

It was that small, see transitory just so I don't forget how to drive. Um, and I know there's taxes, there's insurance, there's so many things that it just make no sense. And then the car was pretty much standing on the parking lot because I was working in the city and then you. Just draw, finding a parking spot in the city is pretty expensive as well.

Dan: So yeah, also part of it. Yeah. So here, you know, it's. It's socialism, so everyone needs to contribute to the Danish state that, you know, provides for everybody in return. And when you get a car here, it's, it varies a little bit these days, but the general rule is the taxes, I kid you not, 180 percent of the value of the car.

So you pay the car almost three times when you buy it. Oh my. It is. It's mind blowing. It's so expensive. It's, it's just, okay, I'm gonna sink this money and I mean the tax carries through somehow, because also if you sell the car later, like it's kind of, it's still expensive, like also secondhand cars are expensive because you still have this tax, but there's a history of many, many years of people trying to avoid this and the government makes it very hard to avoid it.

Even if you rent a car, they still, if you're from Denmark, then you pretty much pay three times the price to rent because otherwise it's going to be a loophole and everyone's going to rent the car to see where, so it's, it's crazy. I, I think if you really have no choice and you get it, but most people, especially in the city, right, you, you get a bike because it's just a waste of money.

So that's what's stopping me to code in the car.

Sandra: And owning a Tesla maybe. It was so funny. Um, I ordered, what's Bolt? I don't know if you have Bolt, but it's something like Uber in Finland. And it came, like Tesla came, and I wasn't able to even open the door. I didn't know how to open the door. So there was a guy looking at me, and I'm like, well, I'm sorry.

Please help me. I'll just walk, I guess. Yeah, I'll just

Dan: walk. Yeah, yeah, they have this. This is like a good lesson in user experience. Like, when you try to do something too fancy, be it like physical or user interface, then at some point, it's so fancy that people don't know how to use it. And it's not, yeah, it's in the back where you have to do something with your hand, and then the thing should pop up, right?

Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah, I hate that. Yeah, it's terrible. All right. That being said, you want to

Sandra: take the next update? Yes, Gustav.

Playing with Framer custom courses this week. Thanks for the playground. You mean, oh, it looks

Dan: really cool. Can you explain what this is? Cause

Sandra: I don't know. So it's the mouse, the mouse that looks really pretty.

It's a circle. It's so user user, not friendly. Totally a Tesla, just what we were talking about minutes

Dan: ago. Yeah, but that's what, when I read cursor, I imagine, you know, it's under the pointing thingy or the finger or, you know, but this is like the cursor changes the color based on what you hover. Right.

And it's a circle. And then from what I see, it inverts the color, but then it also gets bigger or smaller. I'm not sure based on what it looks super cool, but I have to agree with you. I think it might be hard

Sandra: to use. Absolutely. Imagine you have to click on some links and things like that. Very hard to

Dan: use.

Okay. The next one you have to take. I can't take this

Sandra: one. Victor.

Um, I need to learn marketing. How did you start? Well, I'm building a really good guide. If you, if you need to start from somewhere. Um, it's, it's very interesting. It's my passion. I love marketing shit.

Dan: What is the link, Sandra? Give us the link.

Sandra: What is the link to your course? I did Imagine how cool that is. I was so happy when I saw the domain.

Dan: Bye. Bye. Bye. I'm so disappointed. Like you're supposed to be the person with the link and then you just miss it. Okay. Tell us about why

Sandra: you love it. I love marketing because you are able to, you know, tell your story to the world and push it there and build some kind of narrative around it and find ways.

And it's very interesting. I think people, when they say, and I hit people with. Like usually when I do my marketing calls, I hate saying the word itself like marketing because I feel like people get scared more of the word than actual strategies and tactics they can use. Um, so I, I like, I love marketing, but I hate the word.

Um, but there's also different stages of marketing. Oh, I could talk, I could talk ages for marketing, but there's different stages of marketing and the most interesting part of the marketing, I think. The ones that I have experienced was, um, last year when I took clue on and you have no customers, no users, no build, build already email, and then you need to start from the beginning.

And that's the most interesting part of the story, kind of like figuring out what you want to say and then. for who you are saying it and then pushing it to the channels, right? Channels and then testing it and then putting it on the post boss hog and then seeing what works, what doesn't work. I mean, it's really fun.

You have to say it's really fun. I mean, Dan sold

Dan: his soul. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. I agree. It's fun. I'm also very scared of the word though. I have to say that because it's A blanket for so many things, you know, it's the same as development and it's, okay, what is it? You know, it could be mobile apps, it could be websites, it could be backend servers, whatever.

So it's very scary to me as well, but then once you find your corner where you can kind of know what you're doing, it is fun. It is fun. I think back to how do you learn it? My best, approach is to try something out and see if it worked. And then no matter how much I read, like if you read, you get ideas of what to try.

Sure. But I don't think you really learn it until you try it and see it in practice and then realize, Oh. Is that something or not? Uh, there's a funny comment in here by Jack, um, Willow do Willowby. Oh my God. Hard. Okay. It doesn't matter, Jack. I have a master's in marketing, but I can say with confidence.

Uppercase A L L all my knowledge came from real world experience, building websites, growing email lists, looking at competitors, et cetera. So the master's degree in marketing was worth very little to him, only trying things.

Sandra: I fully agree. What you learn in school, it's totally different than What you actually see in practice and how do you start try to figure out who you are building your product for and then figure out where these people are.

And then test whatever you can.

Dan: Fantastic. Um, I will have to pronounce the next one, and I actually know this person, I'm very sorry for what I'm about to do to you. Szymon Rączka says,

First money from my project, it's not much, but it feels good. 13. 35. 13. 35. 13. 35. Fuck yeah. Congrats. This is, this is the nicest feeling in the world.

Like you've, you've probably, you know, had a job made thousands and thousands of dollars. It doesn't matter. This 13, this is the most important money you've made in your life.

Sandra: Um, so true. I saw actually few, few posts this weekend of people celebrating, um, their first orders or first money. And it's the best feeling ever.

Like every other order you're going to make, it's never going to be the same feeling like this

Dan: one. But I want to say it's such a simple. So it's a screenshot of a chart that goes from zero to 13 or a pretty basic stuff. 500 likes, 99 comments, and 39, 000 impressions.

Sandra: Brilliant. Um, can we, oh, I see Philip here, but can we quickly, um, say what the product is about?

Dan: So. It's obviously, and I know this because I've made many, it's obviously a LemonSqueezy screenshot. And I'm very proud to see this because LemonSqueezy is of course a sponsor of the show. And they've actually made a nice share feature whenever you have these screenshots. Like they know how important this is for people.

That you have like a little share feature where you can pick the color of the chart and like customize it a little bit. So it looks nice for Twitter.

Sandra: Isn't that brilliant? They really know their target

Dan: audience. Yeah, so that's the thing. A company that, I hope this doesn't change, but a company that is in touch with their users and knows, you know, what makes them happy and adds those details is so rare these days.

And then, you know, I think LemonSqueezy is still at a size where They're engaging with the community and reacting to feedback like this thing with a tax inclusive pricing where the VAT is not added on top of the price that you put and then for B2C that's unusual and for expensive products you also have a lot of churn because you go on the product and you see the This is supposed to cost 50 bucks and you go on it and it's 65 for example and then you're okay I'm not paying for I was ready to pay 50, right?

So I think there was a lot of noise about this in December and people told me well you could do paddle paddle has this And now we're in February and they shipped us somehow. So, you know, listening to people, I really, there's some other companies that don't do this in the longterm. I don't want to name names, but products and they're so out of touch with their audience.

I'm sorry. There's

Sandra: totally, totally, totally. So nice job. Nice

Dan: job for the first 13 bucks. Let's make that 1000 X in the next month and keep that going. Really happy. Really,

Sandra: really happy. Yes. Um, Ava.

IndieHackers, have you ever tried to advertise your product on X? I'm having actually a call today with Sir here, so, so let's see what he's gonna suggest to me, but not yet.


Dan: you tried on X? I have not, I have a few months ago, maybe towards going to a year, there was one of the actually prolific makers, but I don't see him that much, Maxime Dupre, he was called. And he would do a lot of these A B tests and experiments and trying to optimize for X and all back then Twitter.

And I know he tried ads, he tried a hundred dollars. And he got, I think a couple of clicks and no conversions out of it. So very bad. And then he was okay. It cannot be that bad. Let me try again. And then the second one was a little bit better, but still a lot worse than what he did with Google ads at the time.

So it seemed, maybe it depends on the type of product, but it seemed to not. Be either easy to, you know, tweak it. And that could be the case with all of them, to be honest, because Google also, when you start, you're going to burn a lot of money in my opinion, before you, the hang of it. Um, and then on X, it might be even harder to get people to click on your thing because of the way the ads were done, but the ads have changed these days.

Like sometimes it's even hard to tell what's an ad and what's not.

Sandra: Yeah, I'm also entering this phase, um, with Klu where I'm ready to spend the money on ads. So, as I said, today I have a call with Serhii, but I would like to also run some ads on X and see how it's gonna work as well. Let's

Dan: see. I've seen a couple very good ads that keep popping in.

So I guess if the people still pay. They must work. There's one for, and it's more not for a product, but for a guide or a course. So there is Luca Cloud, he's always on my profile targeting me with ads and he's selling some sort of DevOps course improvement and whatever. There's another guy that I don't know his name.

I think he, he's building in public though. Um, I'm sorry, I can't remember. But it's a DNS course, like how to master DNS and to understand how domains work and whatever. And I see these and they have, I don't know how many millions of views, these ads. So they probably put a lot of money into them. And I assume they found conversion, uh, that's.

You know, they're not just burning this money, I hope. Please don't just burn the money.

Sandra: Yeah, let's, we'll see like, uh, how, how it goes with Klu.

Dan: Yeah, I'm, I'm also doing, so Serhii, if you want to do ads, talk with Serhii. I also talked with him. He showed me some things. He did some analysis. I realized I don't know what I'm doing.

So, um. Um, I'm definitely needing all the help with Google ads. Uh, it's, it's scary. It's, it's, it's a lot of, you know, prior knowledge that you, that you need to have. It's a little bit intimidating and also it's easy to spend money and get no results

Sandra: on it. I agree with the idea, um, bringing in someone who has knowledge already about it at the beginning of the foundation stage at least.

So the foundation stage is set up correctly. Um, You don't actually lose the money you invest, but you can kind of invest in someone who will explain to you better.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. I'd recommend that. I recommend that if you, if you know somebody, when I did ads first back in, if it may be November, I don't know when I tried on Google ads specifically, I, I didn't know anyone that I could say, okay, Even if I wanted to hire someone, can I pay a person?

And I didn't know anyone, so then I just did it myself. But then as soon as I talked to Surya, I said, okay, this guy knows what he's doing. Then I was like, it's a no brainer because you, you can easily spend hundreds of dollars on nothing on ads, but you better initially at least spend. hundreds of dollars someone telling you how to do it.

And then at least you have some conversion afterwards instead of essentially nothing, which is what I had. And I even got Batman too in the end, did you know?

Sandra: Yeah, you really had a nice experience there.

Dan: Yeah, and people were saying, Oh, it's normal that everyone gets gets banned on Google ads. What do you mean?

Like I, and I made a deposit of some hundreds of dollars. So it's actually didn't feel too good. And then I couldn't even do anything with that money. And I had to get in contact. And everyone was saying, Yeah, they just, they just. Banned people suspend their accounts and then you get in touch then one week later.

You're back. What do you mean? Is this normal somewhere?

Sandra: Okay, I'm glad you you got in touch with Serhii and you're trying to figure it out.

Dan: Please take the next one.

Sandra: Justin.

I'm not a startup founder. I'm a scientist my Experiments just happen to be in entrepreneurship. Oh, I hate this word. I have such a trouble pronouncing it. The great thing about, um, Failing is I'm at least one step closer to success. Have a good weekend, Indie friends. This is very true.

Are we scientists? Can I learn that? Is that our new name?

Dan: Could you be Dr. Sandra?

Sandra: I mean, this is brilliant, but I fully agree with this. The more you, the more times you fail, it means that you have. been trying and trying and testing and then you will figure it out what works and what doesn't work. We are scientists.

I love it. That's, oh my god, that's a new idea for the newsletter.

Dan: Yeah, I like this approach. Yeah, the failing part is such a real part of every day thing. If you take it as an experiment, which, which I get, then it's, you have to somehow deal with failure in a, in a way that you don't stop. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

So then gamified. Oh yeah. scientists, and then I need to fail as fast as possible, and when I fail, I get the results of the experiment, and I can move to the next one. I love that idea. Yeah,

Sandra: exactly. Exactly. And one, one thing to add, and you already mentioned, the failing part can be hard, just don't quit in the meantime.

You know, just exactly as you said, make it interesting for you to continue. And have the idea that you are getting closer to the goal you want to achieve, so.

Dan: Yeah, it's a coping mechanism. I mean, one of my best coping mechanisms is the community, right? Where you fail, and then what do you do? You, you bitch about it, and you go either, and you know, you just.

Talk to your friends that understand you and then you get, you know, it's nothing, just keep going where you, you make a post and everyone's saying, you know, keep going. It's like we had the word, like I did with, with the Google ads, Rebecca Google ads, hello. And I posted, you know, this is shit. And people were like, yeah, don't worry.

You know, they, they do this just. Just, uh, email them, try later, it's gonna work out, don't worry. Exactly, exactly.

Sandra: Okay, the next one.

Dan: Guilherme, he says.

Woohoo, I finally reached the second indie hacker milestone. Took me one year of grinding to get here, but I'm very happy with everything I've built and learned so far.

How long did it take you to get to 1, 000 MRR? And, actually, 1, 000 EUR MRR, so That's, that's even, I think it's better than the other one. Oh, absolutely. I've checked that too. Congratulations! This is a huge milestone. I think, so he has a 34 percent increase versus January, so it's, now it's going. He, he found Perhaps distribution channel that's working.

This looks fantastic.

Sandra: Yeah, I'm super happy to see this. As I said, I've noticed a lot of these posts this week and it seems like 2024 is getting or being an Indie year for sure.

Dan: Yeah. Um. I think, you know, we, we also see February as being a bit of a resurgence. So for me it was slowing down in December, then really bad in January to the point talking about failure to the point where I think you know what's going on.

I don't know why it's so hard to sell things. It's maybe. The general mindset of people, New Year's resolutions, I don't know, unless you have a habit kit app where people want to keep their New Year's resolutions. I've seen a lot of people say, well, sales just go down. You have to stay strong in January and then it picks up in

Sandra: February.

Yeah, but I know like a general rule pretty much.

Dan: Yeah, but what do you think

Sandra: is that? I mean, there's multiple effects. Things are closing in December, starting January, you know, like there's certain. It's just this regular, it's like, that's, that's the thing. Why it's like that, you know, December is the month of everything.

It's like closing the books and shit like that. So I wouldn't even like care about the January. Yeah. Even the same month, like starting the middle of December, everything goes down. That's the time to close your laptop and like thinking about making

Dan: anything. That's right. Yeah, that's right. I still. I still think of it as a month, uh, as any other month, so work wise at least, but not all the, all the people, you know, are indie hackers.

You have to think like perhaps the rest of your, your users, they, they actually don't do what you do. And then they're on holiday. Exactly.

Sandra: Exactly. Exactly. All

Dan: right, we want to take the

Sandra: next one. Yes, Ramesh Aziz.

It's been great Sunday, almost three clients onboarding on my free. Oh, I don't see on this screen.

I need a new screen. This is a great reason, um, to buy a new screen. Wait, now I lost the screen totally. Okay guys, just a second. Some technical difficulties.

Dan: I put the technical music.

We'll be back in one minute. Thank you for sponsoring us. LemonSqueezy.

Sandra: Um, but I wish as is, uh, it's been a great Sunday, almost three clients on boarding on my. Free landing page offers three, still two spots left. My framer templates made sales. Massive thanks to the X community for all support. Really appreciate all of you.

And of course we see lemonSqueezy.

Dan: Of course, the one and only screenshot with, with a bit of lemon juice. Congratulations, Ramesh. This is fantastic. I think Framer templates is a very nice market. Very nice market.

Sandra: It's definitely growing. And I can see, especially on Morning Maker Show, I can see more and more people actually working with them and making sales.

Dan: Yeah. I'm at the point where if you're starting in this and you. have a little bit of design, web design skills. I'm at a point where I'd recommend to, to do Framer. Is Framer our sponsor? Maybe it should be. I would recommend to start with Framer because. You can make some sales quite quickly. It's not MRR and that's also a topic.

Like it doesn't have to be MRR, but it gives you a little bit of boost and it seems to be a good market for indie hackers and, you know, getting a bit of money early. It's so good.

Sandra: Also, you know what I don't understand, and this is totally different topic. Um, what's happening with Webflow when it comes to this?

Why they are so lacking?

Dan: I think they are maybe too comfortable. Like they, they did the platform many years ago and they have a good user base. And maybe they don't compete as hard as they used to. I, I don't know. I can't explain it. Yeah,

Sandra: because they have like a small, I wouldn't even say a marketplace, but few templates that you can use, but there is such a huge, huge potential there as well.

Dan: What's your raw experience between the two?

Sandra: Yeah, I'm using both of them. I'm using Framer for, um, best guys on the world. And um, Webflow I use for Klu and You know, Framer is much more smarter, it's faster, but when it comes to Webflow, you have more ability to kind of like, or I'm just used to, um, customizing there than in Framer itself.

But if you would choose between Framer or Webflow for the landing page or for the like small projects, I would definitely use Shipixen, but then between only Framer and Webflow, Framer would be the place to go.

Dan: Yeah, is it? Is it the problem with the pricing though, because I've seen you like, okay, you're also wildly popular and viral and all that stuff, but I saw like the second day after your launch that you had to upgrade.

Is that? Yeah. Was it expensive? Um,

Sandra: yeah, I'm paying like 20 euros, I think, monthly.

Dan: 20 euros monthly?

Sandra: It's like, um, for, for the first or like the basic one, I've paid 10 euros monthly, but then if you're paying yearly, it's five euros actually. But only 1000 unique visitors. And then when I push Takotreba, um, I mean, we reach that quite fast.

And I had to upgrade, um, and then it's like 20 euros and 10, 000 unique visitors. Uh, yeah, 1, 000 is not, it's not a lot, it's not a lot. Maybe for like testing your landing page with certain group of the user would be. But for me and my, my, my inability to stop at certain points and just dragging the people to the website, it wasn't that.

Dan: But you still don't have any hard feel like you're, you're fine to pay this because you've made a nice website and it was kind of. Yeah. Like, do you feel, do you feel good at the end of this? I

Sandra: feel good. Um, like. You know, I've covered expenses and 20 euros, not that much comparing to the pricing that I'm selling.

So I'm fine. I'm not complaining still, but those, I'm also a very cheap person. So I might

Dan: hit that point. But can you downgrade actually, or once you've upgraded, that's it? Oh,

Sandra: that's a very good question, Dan. I think it runs by a monthly basis, this unique visitor. So let's see what I'm going to do next.

Dan: Well, just, yeah, just downgrade it. If, you know, when you have a launch, of course, you want to up it. If you, if you put it on product hunt and you don't get featured, then it's no problem. Yeah. But if you're one in 10 people that do get features these days, then it might. You upgrade it, you go through the launch and then you downgrade it the next month and then it's no problem.

Sandra: Yeah, that's a brilliant idea.

Dan: Oh boy. Uh, is it? Is it still the case that you want to give this course free to all members,

Sandra: including myself? guides, um, and there's three guides. It goes from Twitter or X to, um, to, to, to product content and then kind of combining all together in Posthog. All of these guides are totally free for, um, Morning Maker Show members.

And funny thing, like, I started these guides for them. Like I started these guides for members. Only. And then I was like, wait a minute. I could totally make this. Um, on its own, like sell it outside of like the members that's, but the whole idea came from the building it for the members. So they're going to, Oh, this is so

Dan: cool.

This is so cool. So you wanted to give something to the members and then, well, actually. I could also make this into a small product. This is awesome.

Sandra: Yeah. I, I don't know, like the reason I think most of our members are building their own products and you know, the one thing that is kind of lacking is this marketing side of, of, of the story.

And you know, I'm a big marketing geek on these things. So it was just like, yeah.

Dan: So have you started on, on making content? Oh wow. Oh, wow. And you haven't

Sandra: told me. Yeah, I did this, this weekend was quite fun with my brother around. He was laughing a lot of, a lot to me because all the, all the guys have videos.

So he was thinking all the time that I'm actually making TikToks. So then he wanted to make TikToks. So it was a fun weekend.

Dan: Wait, so you made a TikTok with made a

Sandra: TikTok. He loves TikTok and he's quite big on TikTok, by the way. Maybe there's something to learn about TikTok

Dan: with him. In a few years he's gonna do the marketing and you'll be, oh, I'm, uh, I'm out of the game now.

You're gonna be at the gold farm because you don't know, yeah, you don't know what channels to use. Yeah, I will

Sandra: be out of touch for sure.

Dan: All right, let's take the last one and then, and then we go to work. I have a lot of plans for this week. They've been ruined since I've learned that you, you won on startup stage.

I'm kind of. demolished at this point, but I'll try to pick myself up and do something. Want to take the

Sandra: last one? Yes, Tom Osterlund.

I'm learning about writing a welcome sequence for emailing lists this morning. And of course, trying to implement such a sequence. Anyone get got some favorite hacks for a Good welcome sequence.

Um, this, this is oh, I hate MailChimp. This reminds me of my struggles with MailChimp. I need to change. I need to change MailChimp or they need to change. I don't know. I'm still cheap when it comes to MailChimp. Anyway, um, I built, I built one for, um, Klu and the first one or the welcoming one is Super hard because you don't know kind of what is the right balance.

You're trying to put everything together for them, um, to understand, but also in the same time, you don't want to overwhelm them. I think the first line is the key or and then the first paragraph, whatever you say in the paragraph. Um, I think the goal with the first welcoming email is to actually welcome them on a nice Success.

Way and to kind of build the story that they are part of the product or whatever you're building and selling And explain to them how important they are in this process as well And then you add whatever needs to be added in the in the email. What's your thoughts?

Dan: Yeah, I've tried a couple times You know, I tried to think of if I was in their shoes, how can I do this?

So I'm not annoyed because what can happen with the email sequence is that you get bombarded with mails. Like the first two days you get mail after mail. And I'm like, okay, I want to subscribe for this thing. No, that much, so I kind of arrived at fewer and also spread over a week or even two. It's what I would like, you know, and maybe it depends on the product and how difficult it is to you.

Sometimes you need to tell people, Hey, you can do this or that. Yeah. It's, it's not easy to write the copy for this. It's not easy. Yeah. So maybe we're going to learn in the upcoming course on tacointrobat. com.

Sandra: I'm really excited about the course. I'm really excited. Also, I'm super scared. But yeah, I don't

Dan: know.

Yeah, I just want to say like I am very impressed that you're doing this and then that you have the, the courage, you know, we're talking and we're putting ourselves out there quite a bit, but doing the course, it's always so scary, like when you launch it and people go through it and they look at you talking and your thoughts and so on, and what if someone says, you know, Oh, I didn't enjoy this.

Like you take it personal because it's putting yourself out there and like there's always going to be people that say that that's the thing. Like there's always going to be people that have different backgrounds and they maybe have different styles of learning. You know, you cannot hit, you can have a hundred that are super happy and they say you're the best person ever.

And you know, they've, they have a new life because of you. And then there's one person that says, I hate this.

Sandra: Exactly. And you know, what's my, because all the guides are built on top of what I have done. And what I have tested and I'm pretty sure it works and you know, it's very simple. I don't like going into like super wide thing, just like this is the straight strategies that you need to use.

But my fear is that people will not follow them, you know, that's also one of my fears. And then they're going to get disappointed. So I think I wrote on don't buy it if you're not going to use it.

Because the whole point is like, you know, I, I, I, Alex, you know, explaining everything in the details and then steps to do so and why we are doing these things and blah, blah, blah, and how to do it and then to do list and all of these things, but you still need to do it, you know, that, that, that, that, that's, that's where the fear is for me.

Dan: Yeah. But, but do you have an armor in that way that. You've, you've already tried this. It's not something. Yeah. Yeah. And

Sandra: then I'm going to do the calls with these people because I want to make sure that they are actually doing

Dan: it. Oh, so by doing calls, you mean you're going to call them in the middle of the night and ask, did you

Sandra: do this?

I mean, I'm going to be polite. I'm going to book. Yeah.

Dan: I actually think this could be a selling point. If you want panic attack calls, testing your marketing throughout the night, then this is an extra package you can sell. Yeah.

Sandra: Just to make sure that we are on the same

Dan: page here. Oh boy. All right, Sandra, thank you so much for beating me on startup stage.

You're the best. I would like to thank you everyone for joining us this morning. We're so happy to see you. If you want to listen to previous episodes, make sure to go on, listen on Spotify, Apple podcasts, get the transcripts, you know the drill. Thank you to our sponsors, Posthog, LemonSqueezy. Inline help, Baked Design Studio, Startup Stage and MagicSpace SEO. We love you all and we love our members so, so much. See you on this court and have a brilliant week. Everyone. Oh, that, that was really good.

Sandra: I agree with everything Dan said. Let's have a really good week and see you on Friday. Bye.

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